PvP-mechanics for beginners
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guys chill. I really dont want to have to lock an off topic post
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Sorry, i was honestly trying to be helpful, i can't see where i dismissed anyone's concerns as whining or was borderline insulting.
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@H:
I started…
I state a view as to why the point of the topic is to dismiss anyone's non-enjoyment of PvP as whining; as usual this prompts a pile-on of borderline flaming insults of character instead of even addressing anything, missing the point entirely; hence the re-iteration of the exact same thing in each post. Clearly there isn't room for difference according to some. Stay the course; do what you enjoy and avoid those that enjoy making your playtime a waste of anything you want to do.
You are being unfair, H.
Nobody here tried to insult you or just discard your opinion.
It was not just about the difference of opinion though. It was about derailing the thread with inflammatory insinuations. You must agree that it is not right to call people on being "pvp fiends" (as if inferior to "real roleplayers") when they're actually trying to be helpful or tell people they should not talk about something (unless you are a moderator, of course).To be constructive, why don't you write a guide to pvp of your own? I'm sure we could all learn something from the way you do it.
I've noticed that many players here have extensive ooc knowledge of the way server works. Why sharing it is worse than just hoarding it to their advantage? -
The only things it's 'bad' to share about the server in a public forum, are spoilers.
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Heroes clashing against villains is a key part of DnD and fantasy rpgs in general. On CoA villains are as often pcs, as they are npcs. PC Heroes work against PC Villains, and even if the methods they employ are not violent, the methods your enemies use may very well be. While there is a strong mandate to make pvp, and the conflict leading to pvp fun, and engadging, there will come a point where the stories of two characters clash in such a way that something has to give. Very often this is one of their lives.
Saying that PvP knowlage is OOC advantage is silly. Its the other way around. What is OOC is that players are hopeless mechanically, and their heroes and champions are thrashed around like little dolls by a pc that is weaker and outnumbered several times over. Experienced adventurers know how to handle threats. They are among the most dangerous and capable individuals on Faerun. If you want to properly portray many (most) concepts you need to be able to project the power they would realistically wield, otherwise its very ooc, and immersion breaking.
Its not hard to learn to be good in PvP. It took me A couple hours on a seperate module to teach a few players when we were still players, and that knowlage has served them well based on the success they have had with characters of theirs. Seriously, there is nothing scary about pvp, and when properly done, and rules are followed it -is- a key aspect of the CoA experience, if you engadge in any form of conflict or competetive plotlines.
Just my 2 cents.
Anyone that wants me to give them pvp tutoring can pm me on irc.
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I'm in full support of a guide like this considering however much we don't want to admit it mechanics do play a big role and the more players that know how to use them the better.
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@Undead:
…..other good points..
Experienced adventurers know how to handle threats. They are among the most dangerous and capable individuals on Faerun. If you want to properly portray many (most) concepts you need to be able to project the power they would realistically wield, otherwise its very ooc, and immersion breaking.
....I believe that phrase is very important.
However, on COA, with consumables being the key to that power, I believe the environment is a utter mockery of that phrase.Very few would argue that consumables are not more important than your character's attributes and levels. Time and time again we hear "That quests not so hard if you use your consumables"…"A lvl 1 or 2 can take several high levels with the right consumables" etc.
I'd like to see consumables, with the exception of healing, be extremely rare. Potion and Wand crafting would take extreme amounts of gold and XP. Let the actual characters shine, not the players.
I think it rather ridiculous that "Build-Up" is RP-based Character-vs-Character until a certain point is reached, at which point it is Player-vs-Player with the actual Characters being mostly meaningless.
Sort of like a TV gameshow. It's a Social server, with people's hands hovering over the WoW button, each wondering who's going to slap it first.
However, I realize that virtually no one else feels that way, and in that light, I think that open discussion of mechanics, such as this thread, is important. -
No, it's actually a very fair point, games. Being inadequate unless you buff up does cheapen the experience for some.
But making consumables very rare or too expensive will just widen the power gap. You have to either take them out of the picture altogether or leave them available for everyone. Not to mention that most quests are balanced for parties heavily stocked on buffs too. -
While it possible to compensate and overcome limitations with rp, and teamwork, its silly to say that levels and mechanical power dont matter on CoA, and as a result class abilities, a second attack a round or a certain circle of spells all provide very valuable advantages when it comes to more violent forms of conflict resolution, or the ability to intimidate/blackmail your enemies with the threat of employed force. That said, access to consumables allows a lower level character to compensate for the lack of inate strenght, and that too is part of standard fantasy fare, with a weaker hero using magical powers or trinkets to even the odds (though in all fairness, only in salvatores books do people chug potions like water =P But thats an acceptable "flaw" if you can to call it that, for everything else the system facilitates).
Its also important to note that no consumables means that levels and magical gear matter the most. With no consumables its more important then ever to play optimised builds because you cant compensate for gimped builds or parties with money. It also makes clerics and wizards and druids insanely overpowered to the other classes. Easy access to consumables are good for rp, and allow for all builds to be competetive on at least some scale with the right preparation. This is a very good thing.
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It seems peole are getting the wrong picture regarding consumables. They are not the stuff that'll WIN you the most pvp encounters. People seem to think that if you got potions and wands, that it's an automatic win. What will win mechanical pvp for you is surprising your opponent (makes sense, yes?), and most of all, -YOUR ALLIES-, gained through roleplaying.
Consumables are an important factor, but having allies will always be the most important one. A lone wolf is vulnerable while a pack is strong.
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It seems peole are getting the wrong picture regarding consumables. They are not the stuff that'll WIN you the most pvp encounters. People seem to think that if you got potions and wands, that it's an automatic win. What will win mechanical pvp for you is surprising your opponent (makes sense, yes?), and most of all, -YOUR ALLIES-, gained through roleplaying.
Consumables are an important factor, but having allies will always be the most important one. A lone wolf is vulnerable while a pack is strong.
I disagree on the ally part. The most of all goes towards the "surprise" (read it as well as I am buffed you are not or I am more buffed than you or I have more apt consumables than you).
If you surprise your opponent (i.e. you are well prepared, buffed and with proper consumables at hand) you do not need allies at all, even if you are outnumbered.
I witnessed this fist hand in Talona team trip to the Mother. One single buffed character took three different classes without being harmed almost at all. -
I oversaw that fight as a DM, and was baffled at how soundly Team Talona was beat down, despite outnumbering the attacker 3 to 1, -and- having higher level. Buffed characters can be dispelled, and tempo advantage reclaimed, especially when you outnumber the attacker. The situation could have -very- quickly been turned in favor of the Talonites if they had had a real idea of what they were doing. They didnt, and were soundly beaten, and their story ended as a result.
And really, if you are going to invest hundreds of hours into playing characters over the course of years, why not take the hour or two it would take to become proficient with pvp, and as a result find your range of options for creating stories and rp ingame have multiplied several times.
Being poor mechanically does not mean you are a better roleplayer. It just mean you are poor mechnically. No player should idealise being bad at a key aspect of fantasy storytelling, (conflict resolved with violence) or kid themselves that they are not limiting themselves by not learning. Especially on a server where its a very valid form of pushing and ultimately resolving stories between characters and factions.
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My two cents.
There a few items out there that can cause a massive amount of damage in a relative short amount of time, one of the most easy to get hold of being fire bombs. No matter how weak you feel you might be mechanically, having enough sudden dps to drop your opponents in a matter of rounds can sometimes win you a fight before your foe even know he's in one, with occ shock and panic making them freeze up as there hp plummets. :wink:
Similarly, I've played enough outlawed characters to know that items like haste and greater barkskin potions can make you a bitch to hit in close combat, causing your opponent(s) to waste valuable time trying to hit a target that can't be hit with any certainty, while you pull out the "toys" , let your allies get to work or just run like hell.
Anyway, always remember the golden rule of PVP, it likely all be over in rounds.
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Emphasizing what ULK says. It's worth investing time on pvp-mechanics and this topic was made for those who're either brand new or have played on the server for quite a while but still don't know of pvp-mechanics. Reading the tips should help one avoid getting stomped by one player as a team.
Of course buffs over rule if you yourself aren't buffed or don't have some crazy nuking prepared or dispel. But if ppl know how to use consumables it'll be very unlikely for one player to take down a whole army and then the factor of allies is suddenly a lot more important.Hence: To defeat one strong of arm you bring a weapon. To defeat a skilled warrior you bring a group and dispel. To defeat another group you have tactics.
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The situation could have -very- quickly been turned in favor of the Talonites if they had had a real idea of what they were doing.
If they were playing according to a win-oriented mechanic, rather than flavorful characters. Maybe that cleric prepares spells other than Dispel to illustate their worship. Well, that's doing it wrong, apparently. That's my point.
It's silly to say that:
And really, if you are going to invest hundreds of hours into playing characters over the course of years, why not take the hour or two it would take to become proficient with pvp, and as a result find your range of options for creating stories and rp ingame have multiplied several times.
I have to press the Utter BS button here. Spells and weapons all have names, descriptions, and flavors. You can pick those to make your character flavorful. Knowing which ones kick ass is not only limiting that selection, but has nothing to do with varying your RP; in fact it contrives it. The entire basis of what I'm saying is that you should be able to have a viable character on a foundation of its flavor, rather than having to sacrifice that according to those who will do whatever to prevail in a PvP situation.
I'm definitely not trying to change the mind of the choir; it's clear they have the "right" idea on all this. I'm just saying (or was, at my first post, which then was taken as meaning I'm opposed to mechanics) the information in the first post has been available for years and is self-evident once you have the items in question. Pointing it out and saying people would enjoy PvP more if they "played like us" is like talking down to a large group of people from a pedestal made of old WoW game cases.
Edit:
This:
And "teh win" don't mean shit.
However it's silly to ask to not play by it.
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Nothing prevents you from being both thematic and effective mechanically. To use dispel magic as an example, even if the cleric feel its wrong to ask their god to grant them the prayer to protect him, and fellow faithful from hostile magic that would harm them, dispel consumables are readily available on the server for as low as 150 gp for a one use item usable by any class.
I take offence at the implicaton that I, or other mechanically savvy players are somehow lesser rpers because we are able to blend both thematic/IC feat/spell choice and mechanical strenght.
If you read what I said, I was advocating that people learn the mechanics so they -dont- need to powerbuild, because understanding mechanics allows for more thematic and outlandish (mechanically weaker) concepts to work. Not just the same old powerbuilds that run on cruise control.
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@Undead:
I take offence at the implicaton that I, or other mechanically savvy players are somehow lesser rpers because we are able to blend both thematic/IC feat/spell choice and mechanical strenght. If you read what I said, I was advocating that people learn the mechanics so they -dont- need to powerbuild, because understanding mechanics allows for more thematic and outlandish (mechanically weaker) concepts to work. Not just the same old powerbuilds that run on cruise control.
This sexy beast has basically put what CB, myself, and a number of others have been saying all along. It's really this simple. Really.
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I take offence at the implicaton that I, or other mechanically savvy players are somehow lesser rpers because we are able to blend both thematic/IC feat/spell choice and mechanical strenght.
It seems to be prevalent that people equate mechanical knowledge with bad roleplay. You're the third (or so) to take offense at that misconception when it isn't what I'm saying at all. Since the latter part of the quote ("being able to blend […]") is what I'm questioning, though, it's somewhat circular and indication that there is still miscommunication.
Knowing what works = good.
Using everything that works = I am saying not so good; others saying it's how others should play to enjoy game.Edit:
To contextualize the above 2 lines with what I was saying on page 1: since there is a gap between those that know mechanics well and those that don't, it's more conducive to to variety for those using everything to not do so than for everyone else to aspire to that style. Regardless of spreading knowledge (as long as that knowledge doesn't include a "how-to"). Given that weak-ass spells have descriptions that a mechanically unknowledgeable player might choose (Contagion, for example) to rely on, it's in the spirit of variety and IC roleplay to not nullify this with borderline-OOC tactics that are used because "that's how it's done on CoA". -
You do not NEED to use borderline ooc tactics because there are sooooooo many different ways to approach mechanical pvp. There is not one right right but a series of different methods, usable by most flavours and themes. UNDERSTANDING PVP AND HOW IT WORKS HELPS YOU UNDERSTAND THIS.
I've use such different methods with most my characters when it comes to pvp that they have VERY little in common, spell and tactics wise.
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I don't get why you're so persistent on addressing the same matter over and over.
H, we've already answered and you got your answer and so did others who might've had the same questions like you on the matter with pvp interacting in rp. I even editted so ppl understand that the info can be altered to your own character with examples even.
If you want to debate further create another topic. I didn't make this topic to discuss this, only suggestions on mechanics that help novices. What you bring in here is how pvp should be incorperated into rp and to which extend is it right to use certain spells and consumables etc. when you have said class with said goals and knowledge IC-ly.
You should make your own topic about it, if it's so important for you to discuss/announce.