DM Announcement RE: Favortism Et Al.
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I liked Thune a lot. His character was definitely everything that Moloch said. He made things happen and shook things up in the server, bringing everyone he could (that made sense) into the fold. That being said, whether or not him having him die will make things more fun or not for the server as a whole I cannot determine, but I would like to point out my personal opinion regarding a few matters that have been brought up.
@Conflict:
Something I can say however is that a lot of times IG developments are entirely influenced by IG matters, including such things like combat rolls, luck, etc. Things could have gone so many ways in what happened that day and despite everything being I feel like everyone remained 100% in character at all times and simply played out what had developed IG. Everyone involved was fully aware of the risk involved in that fight IC and OOC.
No character is really "too big to fail", and sometimes even when the odds are in your favor combat rolls just tend to set things in the opposite direction. One crit in that fight would of have caused a completely different outcome, and that's a factor I really don't have any control over. There is a thing called "conflict escalation", and every time a character sets the bar to a higher level, then he should fully expect the same from his character's antagonist.
@Involving:
The way of involving others with the character I play is quite different from that of Jaded's. He did this by doing most his crimes out in the open, giving people a chance to get involved since their characters actually gets to learn ICly what's going on. Thune was his first FD victim and it's a bit of a let down for me to see all this angst rise when I was trying to do was "shake things up" myself and play an antagonist/minion that would be widely known throughout the server (though don't think that him killing Kraegus had anything to do with that detail in particular). Some characters are just more social and willing to work with instead of against others, but that just comes down to the concept. We can't all player leader-types all the time.
In a game like this there is no reward without risk. No adventure without danger. Our characters deal with very real threats all the time, and sometimes those threats are other PCs, which I personally find more dynamic and interesting to interact and oppose and the outcome feel a lot less predictable. Thune knew that and still took risks, made controversial decisions and actively opposed people with philosophies antithetical to his own, even if that meant making a bunch of enemies, and that is why I felt like he was a great character.
I like to think that the best players are the ones focused on the story, instead of how far their character got, and that have learned to roll with the punches, even if that means permadeath after ten long months of hard work with a particular character (even then I'm sure it was an awesome ride!). So long as people are having fun while writing a good story IG that makes actual IC sense, then I think things are going well. Sometimes to "shake things up" involve of stepping on other character's toes and taking risks, since over time things have the tendency to escalate to FD.
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Actions hold consequence.
It's as simple as that.
Also; no, Solus is not a beast mechanically, he's a weakened RP-Build with worthless feats. The player knows how to PvP, is the difference.
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I guess repeatedly beating up characters does not necessarily amount to "shaking things up".
But in this case everything was made crystal clear and i think we all appreciate the transparency. I understand now why DMs liked Thune as a character, I understand why they disliked his player, I understand why some of them were somewhat disappointed with the way Thune died and I understand why Jagged chose to end a story where he could actually create a new one (props for a mature and insightful post, btw)All that said, a legendary character got FD'ed by an underdog and DMs just rolled with it, keeping in-game events in game. To me this is a good sign. "Big" characters are well liked and supported by DMs, but that's quite different from favoritism.
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Disclaimer: This thread is promoting honesty so I'm being honest. Please don't think I'm trying to be a jerk. It's probably just coming naturally.
I'll admit that I'm a little disappointed with the reaction to all of the IG events this is going over, so far. It seems as if we go over this everytime someone that everyone likes, loses. It happened with Marati and Sybil, and that was a nightmare that lasted for like two weeks.
I totally get the frustration that comes from having a powerful opponent. You see a character that is very very good at pvp and you want to assume he's an asshole powergamer. I get it. I've done it.
That said, JaggedSoul isn't that, and his actions with Thune were more than fair. He was originally hired by my character to assassinate Thune. Which means he didn't have to interact with Thune at all- but he did. It made things a lot more interesting, and I've got the screenshots to prove it.
Never had a problem with Thune- he was just untouchable- at least to my character. So I hired people to cause trouble for him. He and I had interacted. We became enemies. Things escalated. Everything that was done was done IC and conciding with the pvp guidelines. I play a gimp build that was made specifically to rely on others. It was IC to hire an assassin to handle an enemy of the slums, and so I did.
We took Thune's gold because it was IC to do so. The rest of his stuff Solus had, and I honestly didn't know about it until much later.
I liked Thune as a character quite a bit. He became less enjoyable for me when I had to convince Jadeth OOCly to not quit because of bad luck. It became even less enjoyable when he blamed it on being drunk a day later. Because all that does is paint us as OOC assholes- which we aren't, I promise.
I'm disappointed that lots of people jumped on Jagged like he did something horrible and cruel as if he did anything wrong. (He did everything IC.)
I'm upset at the allegations that he is any less interesting than another character, especially since his character hasn't been around long enough for those allegations to be proven true. I'm legitimately impressed that he hasn't quit due to some of the things I've heard being said. (I probably would have been gone by now.)
It's certainly not fair to say a character can't defend his or herself from "greater more intriguing" characters, whether this is true or not.
I'm glad we're handling these issues like this though. I feel a lot better ranting about it and being done with it.
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I don't think anyone has said what Solus did wasn't legitimate?
Yes, we're disappointed Thune is dead, but it is our personal disappointment and we are perfectly entitled to feel however we damn well want. If we took it out on Jagged, then complaints are warranted. We didn't. We could have raised Thune, who's to stop us? We didn't do that. It was legitimate, there was considerable buildup, we knew he was part of your crew.
I was also ready to enforce FD when Solus originally attacked and subdued Thune, putting him in the cage. I would have been saddened, but I would have declared Thune dead. He didn't FD though (no, I didn't influence his actions in any way), he left him alive there, which I really appreciated, which in fact, we rewarded him for, for being courteous, following the rules, extending conflict and having fun. In a lot of ways, it was a textbook PvP scene, with no bad feelings and considerable story buildup.
So yes, while Solus might be in deep shit, no one on the DM team is harboring any ill will towards JaggedSoul. We do think his character has done less to involve others than Thune has, but again, we are perfectly entitled to make such judgements, so I don't see the problem.
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Don’t have any expectations but enjoy the ride. The odds of a satisfying ending are nil to none.
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I was more making these allegations against anyone who did, Polaris. I certainly don't have any beef with you. Granted, most of my information is second hand, as I missed this famous ordeal. Perhaps my beliefs are unwarranted. If so, I do apologise.
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Just pointing out that we gave jagged a fair shake. It wasnt aimed at you in particular.
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I am a very, –very– new player here. I have been on coa less than a year. Two characters, both low-level, support classes, lightly played, low plot involvement. You get the idea.
That said-- the thing I probably like most about coa is: the wonderful realism and believability of the world. And one of the things that makes it that way is that stuff doesn't work the way we want it to.
If coa was just an escape from "the real world" where everything was "fair," and the DM team's whole job was to give everyone equal attention and playing experience, you have to admit it: the storylines would be terrible because there would be no unpredictability or zest. Everyone would stand around waiting their turn and character development would atrophy and die.
And that's the whole point. Because a great character concept and brilliant plot schemes are no guarantee of success, and a weak character with zero backstory at the start can suddenly end up leading quest after quest and forming a new faction. I've only been here a year and even I can see that. It's exciting and unpredictable and anything is possible.
But unrealistic ambition and mindlessly predictable approaches are ALWAYS going to be disappointed. You could have the best story idea ever but that doesn't mean you deserve to have everyone else's plots warped by the DM team to feed into yours. We have to do that work ourselves, in-game, in-character.
So if you are upset because the DM team and the player base doesn't seem to appreciate your ideas or RP, change yourself instead of complaining. Try a mundane character and jump into somebody else's plotline. Make it your goal to make RP and questing fun for OTHER PLAYERS, not just yourself, and you'll earn some respect. And that will pay off, because you'll start to understand what kind of RP and support the player base and DM's appreciate. So when you give your epic narrative another try, you'll know how to sell it and involve other players, and I fully believe you'll get the attention and respect you're looking for.
The DM's here kick ass. So do the players, as far as I've encountered. Don't ruin it by complaining; if you don't like where you find yourself, loosen up. This is supposed to be fun, and if your idea of fun is that everyone showers you with attention nonstop, guess what: Arabel isn't the only place you won't be having any fun.
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aaaaaaaand I now realize I sound really pompous and high-handed here, wow. Sorry.
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I was accused of being a DM favourite once. That laughable notion alone changed my perception on the existence of favouritism among the DM team.
Its total and utter bullshit. Doesn't exist. See, I'm pretty sure I was one of the cockroaches Moloch mentions in the OP. I know for a fact the majority of the team saw (and some still see) me as a toxic, egotistical elitist with no respect for other players. And I'm totally fine with that, because I know regardless of their opinions of me if I pick up on a concept, run with it, and involve as many players as I can I'll be treated very much the same way Jaded was. You don't have to like the guy to know that he's doing something productive for the community and generating the type of fun that drives CoA forward. There's a reason we've lasted so long on a crappy game.
Everyone gets a fair shake, its up the players to decide what they want to do with it.
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Yeah, don't believe the hype. I love this server, but god…the people...the whining...I wouldn't want to deal with them either. Probably why I don't play any more. Even if the whining isn't directed at you, it still grips your manhood and snatches it away to hear or see a grown ass woman/man/both cry bout this game. And I'm glad Moloch is back cause its good for the server's players to have someone to lift up their skirts to expose them. Just being real, these games while social, bring out ungodly amounts of antisocial emotions. These people should focus on getting themselves better before spoiling everyone else time.
(No personal attacks please. Paragraph removed. -Polaris)
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mmmm I think…wow..
I dont know .. nothing is all black or white...
About Thune.. i dont think he get any advantage as a player... but it logical he get support . IT THE GUARD LEADER!!!..Many time i see character yelling and talking agains Thune front guard npc in the guildhall.. etc.. if i be a DM, thos players will finish in jail...or be kick out of town...
Erul'kan fight agains Thune in the Hullack forest and DMS bring me elvens npc for helping me.
.. I know am not a aisy player... and not fite with all the kind of rp .. players or DMS... I CAN NOT said i ddint get DMS ATTENTION.. all i can said .. it am not shure i like get THIS KIND of DMS attention..
Erul'kan was in the elven ''warband''.. we made post .. we do alote of rp... and even we have our elven forum where we post our plans .. or action and our goal... DMS tell us .. we dont know what your goals. what you want to do..etc.. exept of the game where we fond the Corellon sword... all the DMS attention we hade involving PVP..Nothing who can help us in our plans and
goals.. nothing who need something els of good gears.. powerful spell and alote of potions and tricks...we trying to get a
place.. home faction.. tower..etc.. NO anser. want build a Seldarine temple and write on our forum how etc... NO ANSER..trying to get the Shevarash statue in the temple of Victory.. trying to talk with the Tempus priest about it. or searching to see if we can not stole it.. NO ANSER.
Erul'kan( Shevarash cleric ) start Chaotic neutral.. but after couple of ..actions. he become CE.. but i was still able to cast clerical prayer.. even Shevarash dosent look..as all the Seldarine gods..not accepted any evil... I try to talk about DMS about this and ask them if it alright.. or put time for find a IC cool reason why Shevarash willl let me use blessing even am evil..or see if i shoud not get good point too for some of my IC action too. DMS NEVER Anser me about this or look to care .. or find this interesting.......why ?.. Becose i think DMS dosent considere it going to involve anuf peoples for get attention on probably. AND at the end i can not said they totally wrong..
But .. I prefer stay IC and involve or be involve only with what my character shoud be.. aneways.. 3/4 of the time i die in DMS game .. better be for a good IC REASON atleas..
I dont like dms game when we are 23 characters running after monsters ... looting like fool... and looking like the next Shreek movie.. with all the kind of races and allignements working togheter juste becose there a dm arond....
I dont like when DMS come to me with a attitude of '' let me show you how to rp and how your character not important'' no matter the npc.. i call this .. OOC DM action.and when DMS do this. i do the same and they dont like it and i .. dont care.. :P ..
When DM kick me out of a area with a army of monster and tell me on the tell i shoud not go in the wild alone... Hey!! i was alrgith befor you bring me thos monsters. and i know what am doing...and am in a place my character have IC reason to be and that all...
not my fault if the druids drinking milk at the Guildhall waiting for dms for they take them by the hand for bring them in the wild for making them game.....DMS already tell me to not tell to other players how to rp.. am agree but dont force me to rp my character as them..: One time a npc elf come to us in the freash spring..for asking our help but he also complain becose i made shrine with firecamp...Érul anser: As if i'a wood elf priest of the seldarine from the High forest dosent know how to make a secur firecamp..WE protect the freash spring for month now...and you come for ask our help no ?. so show respect to a Shevarash priest ... DM elven npc anser: well if you do not show more respect..i will not ask your help then. and the elven npc walk aways desapear in the wood.. ..after this a army of orcs attack us and trying to destroy the firecamp i made. fire ball come from no where.. but i survive. and DM ATTENTION ended after 10 minutes...
I WAS pretty aware the Erul react will make the DMS PISS.. BUT i was also piss to see DM make is npc react like this... and am react whit DM .. PC... SPAWNS OR WHAT EVER.. as i think my character shoud IC react... If a dm bring me a goblins i will kill hime.. and will not start to talk to hime becose i know it a dm who control it..
I am totaly trying.. the best i can to imerge my self in a rp world.. I dont want know who behind the character.. if it a guys. a girl.. a alien..a other player like me... a AI or a DM.. if it bring DMS attention fine .. if not. fine..
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…Even if the whining isn't directed at you, it still grips your manhood and snatches it away to hear or see a grown ass woman/man/both cry bout this game...
Pet Peeve. tried to not respond, but I can't leave it alone.
Anonymous account used, and situation changed, so the others involved in a mentioned example dont get pissywhiney, and not quest with me.
Every freaking time a party I'm in gets some Spice the party chat about "DMs hate us try kil uz WTF" my balls lose a half-inch. They started out at 30 inches. They vanished into the rift and are gone years ago.
Within the last month, I died to "Spice". and sure enough.. the Tells and Party blah about the DM "TRYING TO KILL UZ. HATEZ UZ" came in fast n furious. Come on people. The NPC is SUPPOSED to try and survive. That equates to killing us. So what, he killed someone ? That can happen if a NPC rolls lucky anyway. Like that damned RaiceBannon did yesterday, on a one-hit fugue trip. Didn't even bleed. Died on my own, no DM help needed. Crits happen.The Partychat whining was so bad, the DM send me a Tell (as I was one of the dead ).. "I wasn't trying to kill anyone, just make it interesting" (To which I responded "I know. I'm not the one whining, they are. I only bitched about all the crits.") - I assume DMs don't mind bitching about THAT, I guess you guys might bitch about "WTF! they all critted and took my Shadovar out in 2 rounds"
DM 's spicing your quests aren't done to eradicate you. And a DM controlling a boss, or tossing in a few more monsters doesn't mean we should expect +3HammersOfHappiness as extra lootz. if you get three extra orcs, expect three extra orc's worth of drops. Maybe a couple potions. geez.
(although if I recall, possessed NPCs don't give XP. that's trivially annoying, but generally made up for by DMs by them tossing 50 or 100XP at you for the Spice. Unles y'all whine, then they probably get disgusted and leave)
Remember. No Whining. -
Are you guys trying to counter whining by more whining?
Let's not derail the thread. -
Stories do no end with the death of a character, that I believe is a misconception on both the DM team and playerbase part.
Yes, a big mover/shaker was removed from play but I would always consider it as the passing of a generation. How can the next generation reach up to new heights or surpass their predecessors with them being around? How can they be expected to do so with the older generation holding their hands?A void has been left and with that an opening for new players to try and fill it. Perhaps in new and exciting ways.
In my honest opinion there should be no relevance between the topic to Thune, his accomplishments or his untimely (According to some perspectives) demise.Stop wasting time here to discuss the finer points of whining or what not and go in there and fill that void. Just like so many others have done so in the past.
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It is not a waste of time to discuss issues that are frankly upsetting people and poisoning the atmosphere. Though I get your point of "just go play".
DMs hardly think a character's death is always bad. Recall, we push hard to see people's characters retired when we feel the story is ended. In fact, we'd been working with Jaded to see Thune retire at the end of the current war, so ending two weeks early wasn't that big a deal and probably why he went ahead and just stayed dead anyway.
The point, again, I'm going to beat this horse until nothing is left but a greasy smear is that DMs don't play favorites, people who play awesome characters do so on their own and DMs simply reward it (which usually helps you up the awesome a little), and even if you're a player who has never felt the real love DMs have for awesome, it is always possible because we're friendly people who want to have fun with you.
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I dont realy understand this retired things… I play a character until i have no fun to play hime anymore... for some reason.. becose he die to many time becose he be kill by a other player etc.. or becose DMS tell me am PK ..OR something els..etc.. not becose the actual IC story ended ..
.And if for be in the ''Dm favor'' we need to decide with DMS when our character will die... mm i prfer do as Rav... and stay aways from all this then... and try reach the 13 level and keep my IC story alive with interesting idea for me and for the players i play with......etc..... sumun big white dragon and explore with my friends arond.... trying to incress my crafting and stay alive.....
mm You know how many time it take for become good in crafting and anuf powerful for be able to go get the ressourse you need with our friends ?.. god... I shurly not do this again and again with diff characters..if i can avoid it...
You know how many time it take to get anuf golds for buy a good armor or some magic item whitout dms ??? .I mean by your own... with the golds you make when your questing ...
I LIKE it when it hard.. that why i play here.. but i have no will to loos my character becose DMS feel it time ...
This server offer us so many ways to die whitout the dms help .. I see so many players stop play them character becose they juste not able to stay alive... or becose they die and all them IC friends is now to high level for they can continue to quest with them.. Or juste becose they feel they IC did all they want with them character...it hard to reach high level. and it more hard to stay alive when you are high level....
Creat a groupe with your friends is aisy.. keep this groupe alive and help evry one to progress and give them will to continue to play ..creating IC goals...even they die constently ..it hard...
My character not a DMS toys they can use for them storys....and put in the garbage when they feel they see hime anuf...
At the end .. i know and we probably all know what we need to do for be in the DMS favor..
- try to involve the more players you can in your story...
- do not go alone in the wild..
- always try be agree with DMS NPCS when you feel that what DMS want...and not be agree when you feel that what DMS want ...
- posting alote of stuff on the forum..
- die couple of time in DMS GAME and show how you dont care about exp.....
- do not build a character able to change things by his own will becose he is anuf powerful and IC wise to do it if you ddint talk to
DMS about it befor..... - try to support character you know they have DMS favor..
- creat a character badly builded...for the fun of it..
but the questions is .. are i realy want it too.?? DO i realy feel it good rp and having fun if i do such things ??..
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i am just gonna say one things here.. i have been in many dungeon and dragon conventions to have the right to post this
DMs… the most important things a dm should always consider is does your players have fun in your games and wolrd setting.. it is not about your fun only dm, but players before yours, that is a golden rule in wich many , i would even say 80% dm agree on, that wich is said, having lots of different players here, it is evident you wont be able to please everyone, all the time, but forcing one death because you feel like it, is in some respect ''sportive'' mostly if the player doesnt feel he deserved to be pk, my character was once pk, in front of all he hart when they attacked arabel west, for me any guard could have retrieve my body, more so i was the high priest of the elven war band, and i was the one responsable for the alliance with elves and hart... seem to me... a big missap here... but noneless i accepted it witout too much fuss over it.
as for dm not having fovarite players in wich they give them many things, yeah right... you do, and saying you dont is kinda lying right in our faces. being honnest here, and so should you guys( dm) i have seen the equipment erhin had... one bag of holding of 100% ... funny as a dm told my friend once who had the same bag, it was too much powerful item... dm remove the item... but for some reason erhin may keep hers... that is call favoritism nothing else... and things like that, i have seen many many, so please stop saying you dont have favoritism players, it s like me saying i love all the hockey canadain players, jsut so i wont piss any players on the team.. come one.. i like only a few here lol..
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Dms because we are human beings obviously have players we like more then others. This is a social setting where certain people are going to get along more then others. Thats perfectly normal.
What we dont have is favortism in where we favor players based on ooc reasons (like friendship) as opposed to IC accomplishments. To say otherwise is insulting both to the dms, and to the talented and accomplished players that dedicate great deals of their personal time in contributing to the server, creating stories for others to explore and get involved in.