Why do Red Harts use Ranged Weapons? They're just plain nuts
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The other thing thats odd, is the no ranged weapons. Now whilst in honourable combat thats all fine, but in warefare you'd have to be nuts!.
Historicly ranged weapons ARE the future, and military mind would agree.Any order that would totally reject the use of ranged weapons are idoits, or simply in denial that times are changing. EVEN Tempus sees that ranged weapons are the way of the future, though he frowns apon them.
Now for duels,arranged combats yes I can see the baring of range weapons. But in open war or the jackass across the gorge?, So I have to RUN around said gorge hoping for a bridge while you pelt me with arrows?
No attack magic?, while I agree grease,sleep,web can all be very useful in hindering oppents. They lose potentacy fast after level 5 or so, whilsts buffs can turn a fighter into a GOD!. Simpley put I see the harts dying out because the refuse to see how things are.
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The other thing thats odd, is the no ranged weapons. Now whilst in honourable combat thats all fine, but in warefare you'd have to be nuts!.
Historicly ranged weapons ARE the future, and military mind would agree.Any order that would totally reject the use of ranged weapons are idoits, or simply in denial that times are changing. EVEN Tempus sees that ranged weapons are the way of the future, though he frowns apon them.
Now for duels,arranged combats yes I can see the baring of range weapons. But in open war or the jackass across the gorge?, So I have to RUN around said gorge hoping for a bridge while you pelt me with arrows?
No attack magic?, while I agree grease,sleep,web can all be very useful in hindering oppents. They lose potentacy fast after level 5 or so, whilsts buffs can turn a fighter into a GOD!. Simpley put I see the harts dying out because the refuse to see how things are.
The "idiots" you're referring to are known as some of the most fierce warriors throughout FR history. Garagosian Bloodreavers and their warriors are known for charging headfirst into battle and decimating their enemies, while Malarite Huntlords and their hunters stalk their prey for several days, sometimes weeks, savoring the kill because they refuse to use what they consider "a coward's weapon."
Believe me when I say that there is -always- an alternative to using a ranged weapon. Archers on the wall? Scale the wall and rip their throats out. Archmage shooting fireballs from the top of his tower? Climb his tower and break his fingers. Goblins shooting at you from the other side of the barricade? Break the barricade down and dash their brains over it.
It's a personal choice that adds flavor and a variety of different interactions with the world. Furthermore, if you find it so "stupid," then you don't have to be a part of those orders. Go play a crossbow rogue or something.
The Harts, as I understand it, primarily worship Nobanion who, similarly to Malar, finds that ranged weaponry is an affront to the prey/enemy and does not grant them sufficient reaction time to properly counter. The point of this is to make the hunt more of an even playing field. Malarites, however, enjoy this because of the "bloodlust" and the thrill of the hunt behind it. Nobanion sees it more as a show of strength and honor.
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@Neolithic:
The "idiots" you're referring to are known as some of the most fierce warriors throughout FR history. Garagosian Bloodreavers and their warriors are known for charging headfirst into battle and decimating their enemies, while Malarite Huntlords and their hunters stalk their prey for several days, sometimes weeks, savoring the kill because they refuse to use what they consider "a coward's weapon."
I can't help but notice your examples are all certifiable, professional madmen, lunatics who worship sadistic, violent psychopath deities. If anything, using these people as examples supports the notion that you'd have to be entirely mental to try to fight a war with no ranged weapons.
@Neolithic:
Believe me when I say that there is -always- an alternative to using a ranged weapon. Archers on the wall? Scale the wall and rip their throats out. Archmage shooting fireballs from the top of his tower? Climb his tower and break his fingers.
I'm sorry, but the idea scaling a stone wall in full plate is downright laughable. You could as well suggest 'fly up there' if there's archers on a wall if you're going to propose things only Kal-El, Last Son of the Planet Krypton can do.
Can you offer a realistic, believable alternative to using a ranged weapon in at least the situation you yourself listed, IE archers on a wall and a spellcaster in his tower? Because if not, I'll have a hard time believing you. -
I'd rather either debate this in a new General Discussion topic or continue through PMs for the sake of the original topic.
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In the example of a wall, we (the red harts) would use a large number of other options. If there is a large and unscalable wall, we might use a siege engine, or some form of destructive magic. Just not in specific to attack the enemies directly. It is a choice of honor and "fair-play" that guides us to choose our code. Ranged weaponry is more efficient, true, but it has limitations too. Say fog that conceals your target, or what happens when you run out of ammo.
Also for the record, we do use bows, they are just weapons of the hunt. Not to be used in combat. Also we can use a throwing axe or two on a coward fleeing.
In war, there really is no right way to do things. Just the way that works for the given tactical situation. One of the tenets of Nobanion and Siamorphe as well, is to pick your battles wisely. If our enemy is holed up in an impregnable fortress, we may just lure them out instead of rush the keep. So long as there is no deception in the effort, it is honorable combat.
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And honestly the reason, at least in my view, that the harts have dwindling numbers is the current political climate of the server. Being new to the realm, it is fairly daunting to be constantly presented with animosity to your order for reasons not really known to you. I just look at it as a challenge, on top of being a paladin in a regimented and rigid order.
It just seems that good and noble ideals are… on the less than popular side at the moment.
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In the example of a wall, we (the red harts) would use a large number of other options. If there is a large and unscalable wall, we might use a siege engine, or some form of destructive magic.
No, you, the Red Harts, would not. A siege engine, with the exception of a ram if you count that as a 'siege engine', is a ranged weapon. Therefore, off limits. Duty of the Magi also prohibits any destructive magic.
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I'm sorry, but the idea scaling a stone wall in full plate is downright laughable. You could as well suggest 'fly up there' if there's archers on a wall if you're going to propose things only Kal-El, Last Son of the Planet Krypton can do.
Can you offer a realistic, believable alternative to using a ranged weapon in at least the situation you yourself listed, IE archers on a wall and a spellcaster in his tower? Because if not, I'll have a hard time believing you.Yeah..downright laughable…Cough
It's funny really, a lot of people would have their own opinions about the RedHart and the way they do warfare but, when it comes down to action and the Redhart are the first to charge in, they all of a sudden become total bad asses. Usually this is because while on the battlefield, people are still planning on what to do, which is a big no-no. The Redhart as implied, -ARE- knights after all, not just some random adventurer.
Edit: To keep on track here however, as stated before, it's not required but it's very much encouraged to pick one of the three main gods the Redhart worships. It'll get you a lot of brownie points, and opens up much more things to do in the faction.
Edit2: Sorry, I neglected to answer a point. Yes, the Redhart refuse to use ranged weapons or offensive magic, however, they aren't dumb when it comes to warfare. Infact, if RP'd the way it should be, they are probably smarter than most of the server base just because they have that sort of life experience. For their ranged issue, they do have the Stag Watchmen and Yeomen archers, but they are mainly a stay at home force. If they REALLY needed to, Redhart Knights can also use throwing axes or anything else that might be implemented later that is thrown by their own hand. I.E. javelins and such.
As I said before, Redhart cannot use offensive magic. This is very important to keep in mind. Can Redhart fireball their enemies? No. Can Redhart buff themselves up to be gods and throw around dispel magic? Yes!
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@Swifty:
Yeah..downright laughable…Cough
Yes. It is neither realistically, nor mechanically feasible to do. I'd rather not go into the details of the latter, but if you insist…
@Swifty:
when it comes down to action and the Redhart are the first to charge in, they all of a sudden become total bad asses.
No offense to the Red Hart players I've played with, but I haven't noticed any of this. In general, being the first to charge in while the others are still planning is what will get you and your party killed, not being "bad asses".
EDIT: Dispel Magic is an offensive spell. So no, they can not.
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Fireblood, you're playing a curse-only bard, telling people they are crazy for being melee-only warriors. :roll:
It's already been made clear that it's not necessary to have one of the three dieties of the Order for your patron to get in, but also that it does have IC consequences upon your character. If you are something out of the norm then you're going to attract curiosity and wariness from other members of the Order depending on how exotic your patron is - it would be silly if you didn't from a very religious organisation.
Dispel magic being an offensive spell is a matter of opinion. From a RH perspective you are only removing your enemies' dishonourable magics, in the same way an invisibility purge might.
The comparison to Malarites and Garagossans is perfectly valid - Garagossans may just be the most horrendously difficult character type to have a long life with because they should never retreat, as well as not being able to use ranged weaponry. It doesn't matter if they're psychopaths, the Red Hart are as dedicated to their Gods as the Garagossans are to theirs and it is for that same reason that they both do such things that would be considered insane and impractical.
But you only need to see one RH knight challanging a fire giant to a duel over a bottomless pit or one Garagossan throwing away his armour and vowing not to wear it again until his patron welcomes him back as a bloodreaver to see how epic this sillyness can be.
And in FR, doing a bit of ill-advised sillyness for the sake of greater powers often results in intervention that no amount of arrows could have provided.
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@--lizard-man--:
Fireblood, you're playing a curse-only bard, telling people they are crazy for being melee-only warriors. :roll:
Touche.
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In the example of a wall, we (the red harts) would use a large number of other options. If there is a large and unscalable wall, we might use a siege engine, or some form of destructive magic.
No, you, the Red Harts, would not. A siege engine, with the exception of a ram if you count that as a 'siege engine', is a ranged weapon. Therefore, off limits. Duty of the Magi also prohibits any destructive magic.
if that is the case, then why are we building one to use on our crusade against the goblins? If used to target structures only, it violates none of our code.
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Siege weapons do not fall into the category of no ranged weapons. Ranged weapons include bows, crossbows, slings, and the like. I think some of the Redhart members should do what I did and take the time to copy down, word for word, the "Redhart commandments" into their journal's in the game. I believe they're found in the RedHart thread?
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No, you, the Red Harts, would not. A siege engine, with the exception of a ram if you count that as a 'siege engine', is a ranged weapon. Therefore, off limits. Duty of the Magi also prohibits any destructive magic.
I've traveled with RH who used "bow and spear" - since when is ranged weapons off limits to them? That sounds more like Malar than RH, tbh.
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No, you, the Red Harts, would not. A siege engine, with the exception of a ram if you count that as a 'siege engine', is a ranged weapon. Therefore, off limits. Duty of the Magi also prohibits any destructive magic.
I've traveled with RH who used "bow and spear" - since when is ranged weapons off limits to them? That sounds more like Malar than RH, tbh.
Edit: The Redhart can use bows, but ONLY when hunting. While hunting, Redhart must only hunt said creatures with hunting weapons. Spears, hunting knives, bows, etc. They have to hunt said creature with honor and using other more militaristic type of weapons like swords or maces is dishonorable. This discussion really should be continued on the general thread though.
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Lizard-man made a lot of good points in his post, but I just wanted to add that there are not many situations IG that really -require- you to have a ranged weapon. Almost none in fact, since Red Harts are often going to be traveling with people who don't have the same restrictions and can shoot down their enemies in the select few situations where you can't physically reach your enemies. Also, the comment about not climbing in full plate isn't really valid since while in real life it might not be possible, in game wearing full plate only provides you a lower roll on your climb checks but its still quite possible to do.
On another note, I think opening the Red Harts yeoman as a part of the faction might encourage some different types of concepts for the Red Harts. I'd think of it somewhat like the Mages Guild/Stark Wyverns, and I think it'd be really excellent to allow some people apply for that role.
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Yoemen= no chance to advance, your a Knights bitch forever
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Yoemen= no chance to advance, your a Knights bitch forever
Why is that bad? Isn't it like being a wyvern or thayan knight?
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One of the main reasons why Yeomen and Stagwatchmen are not choices to apply for are because they offer no advancement in their plots. Yeomen are often simple farmers or townsfolk who decided to bring up arms to protect their city or land. It's usually volunteer guard service. The stag watchmen are likewise just that, watchmen. They usually guard Redhart lands but otherwise never go out adventuring themselves. I mean, I suppose if there was a weird large demand for "I want to stand around and guard a single building like royal British guards all day" concepts, the DM's might change their minds.
Edit: The best chance you have for such a relationship would be the Squire->Errant->Knight tree.
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The original question posed here is probably a good IC discussion to be had in game, rather than OOC. Along with such things as spell use, siege weapons, etc.
I have had only a few people actively try to discuss the chivalric code with my character in game(who weren't trying to join the faction). Even then, the questions were mostly revolving around the hunting traditions.