Community Transperency on DM Decision
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Its been an inkling problem for some of the DMs for years now that when we ban/account wipe/otherwise punish a player for cheating that those players often lie about why they really got in trouble and blame tyrannical and cruel DMs who are unfair and mean-spirited. While they spread rumors, we typically remain silent about the purpose of the punishments.
Lately, as we saw some rumors spread about how unfair our punishments and behavior are lead to a few players unrelated to any action of cheating/exploiting quit along with the players who were punished–the DMs are wondering just how much players would really want to know about how DMs handle punishments.
Would people want us to just maintain a policy of answering any questions people have about our version of events? Do they want to see a forum where we explicitly explain why the entire team felt certain players had to be punished?
Would players want to just discuss our punishments, standards, etc? Other ideas? We do want to know how the community of players feels about these things.
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Clear guidances on what's an exploitable use of "Too good to be true" things'd (I don't want the exploits to be listed, but for example - the parasite thing) would be nice.
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The DM team is strict but fair, and I trust their judgement. I don't see why they should have the extra work of creating a forum, but if a player asks them about an incident then I think they should answer, to prevent such misunderstandings and mass rage quits.
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I don't see how you can list exploits without explaining what the exploit is.
Typically, it should be pretty obvious what an exploit is. If you're caught using one, a DM will typically either DM kill your PC or erase the character.
If for some reason, you don't feel that's the proper response, you can always talk to the DM team through an e-mail and point out your side of the situation.
Most exploits are pretty obvious, some times a DM may think one is obvious that isn't to players and we'll be happy to talk to the player about that one-on-one in a case-by-case situation.
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Is the policy to assume all players who exploit are guilty of cheating until they prove themselves innocent, or are players given the benefit of the doubt and assumed to not be aware of their exploitative behavior until warned? Killing and erasing first and asking questions later sounds like an easy way to generate bad blood.
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I think that a warning should be offered for first time offenses. Not everyone are aware they are exploiting, and even so, if they wittingly are, a single warning might in many cases put them off it.
If you ie. catch a player in the act of exploiting, tell them that what they are doing is illegal and if they are seen doing it or anything similar again it means bye-bye to their vault. This only require you to have a list over "offending players". I doubt it would be that long anyway.
If you get evidence that a certain player is consistently using bugs, glitches, abuses rules, or anything like: plain punishment is fine and just. IE. delete the character in question. If severe (ie. using bugs to harm others/destroy things people have worked for etc.) they can be banned.
I still believe that warnings should be issued in all first cases for item/skill exploits, unless mechanical bugs/glitches are abused.
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Depends on the situation again.
Usually, when someone is abusing an exploit it will be pretty obvious. Again though, the DMs as a team will discuss disagreements. We don't presume guilty, but we do recognize the exploit was used and thus something happened that warrants our immediate attention.
If a player disagrees with the immediate reaction from the witnessing DM, they're encouraged to talk to the DM team about the entire situation.
Maybe I can provide context:
If I see someone using the dual-weapon exploit, I will watch to see if they just used it once (which players often do by mistake without realizing it) or if they use it multiple times during quests.
If I see its used multiple times, I'll probably delete their character and tell them not to use that exploit anymore.
If I see they just use it once in awhile, most likely as a mistake and not even realizing it grants a mechanical advantage in combat, I'll point out the exploit to them and how to avoid using it.
If they just used it once, never again, it was probably a mistake and I won't mention it at all because there's no reason to even explain what the exploit is.
If the player was using it, and disagreed that the punishment was warranted, I usually talk to them about it and if we don't agree after a polite discussion on both sides then I'll remind them they can e-mail the DM team who will review the situation.
Sometimes, and recently this has happened, someone got caught cheating and rather than politely talking to the DM about it–went on a rampage posting ridiculous things and cursing at DMs and acting disruptive--that kind of behavior leads to even more discipline from the DMs.
Make sense in context?
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… if a player asks [the DMs] about an incident then I think they should answer, to prevent such misunderstandings and mass rage quits.
I think this is fair. I think a forum explicitly listing the reasons and justifications is a good idea in theory, but my concern is the additional hostility it may create or the bad taste it will leave in peoples' mouths.
If someone is banned, I would assume it is for and with good reason. That being said, as a player, I generally accept that someone has done something to make an impression on the server or on a DM in a way that, essentially, steps outside of the fact that we're here to have fun (and have it according to a set of rules, for whatever reason we like that sort of thing).
There is an initial "What for?" curiosity, and those close to the player can certainly ask their fellow player and then follow up with a DM's version of events privately. Putting out into the public isn't the best method, I don't think. If you want the answers, seek them out.
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I am sure the DM team may already do this, but I think some people come onto the server randomly without visiting the site and may do something ban worthy without knowing it, I am just curious if these people are banned out right or given a warning? I only ask because we could really use new players and banning them out right seems, well, harsh.
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I think the player base should understand that the DM's don't really "like" banning people (Except Moloch, who I think grows stronger with each Sacri… ban <_<). I've only ever seen or heard of 3 bans and all three could have easily been avoided.
Bans and stuff can be easily avoided if the players treat the game as just a game. A forum explaining stuff is absolutely over the top and not required at all I feel. Answering questions and clearing doubts is fine and I believe the DMs already do that.
Regarding exploits, most exploits are pretty clear. Some aren't and you can't expect the DMs to waste time thinking of all possible exploits and listing them for you. I tend to think most players don't "knowingly" use exploits and so should be let off once or twice (Maybe not if the exlpoit is very well known).
So far as the decisions on Bans go, the DM's know what they're doing and the players should trust them. The server has been on for a long time and that's because of good DMs and a good player base and new or returning players should remember that.
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I am sure the DM team may already do this, but I think some people come onto the server randomly without visiting the site and may do something ban worthy without knowing it, I am just curious if these people are banned out right or given a warning? I only ask because we could really use new players and banning them out right seems, well, harsh.
New players often have more lee-way than someone who has been here for a few years.
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If you are suggesting a subforum where you give details on why people were banned, I think that is a good idea.
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I dislike the idea of publicly listing the reasons of bans simply because its likely to cause more more bad blood and talking behind peoples backs in the line of:
"So and so got banned for doing ABC, but that other guy did it all the time (even though they only think he was doing the same thing because they lack a complete picture of what was going on)."
Leading to people feeling slighted, and more unbased accusations of dm favouritism and cliques
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I trust the DM judgement on such matters, nevertheless I wouldn't mind a forum like this so when a well established player goes missing i know whether he has been banned or not or just left for some reason.
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Perhaps a brief summary of actions taken, a visible log.
Login/character name:
Reason for action: Exploit/ griefing/ rping having a baby in the Tired Traveler etc…
Action taken:
Notes:Something simple and straightforward that will give other players a chance to see what was done wrong and will give many the chance not to make the same mistake.
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Wait, duel weapon exploit? I don't even know what that is.
I think that sometimes you don't even know or think you are committing a bannable offense. Sometimes your first inkling that you are doing something wrong is when a DM tells you so.
By then, its probably too late.
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Its not too late when a DM tells you if you really didn't know it was a problem. So long as you communicate that maturely to the DM and you're being honest about things.
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Apologies in advance for the long post, but I wanted to be as thorough as possible.
Clear guidances on what's an exploitable use of "Too good to be true" things'd (I don't want the exploits to be listed, but for example - the parasite thing) would be nice.
@Moloch:
I don't see how you can list exploits without explaining what the exploit is.
It doesn't have to be entirely clear, but in some cases players have some idea of what is too good to be true and what isn't, and even a warning in the announcements explaining that any further use of this is disallowed before punishments start being doled out for people who do this despite knowing it's disallowed - things like walking backwards out of combat, logging out to escape death and so on. You don't have to explain the entire exploit, but for something like parasites which are a new mechanic to the game, it's highly probable that people will have differing views on just how they work (I know one person bought a parasite and didn't realise buying it was meant to by synonymous with having it inserted inside you) and some may not consider one action an exploit until it's pointed out to them by a DM. I'm not suggesting a backlog of every exploit ever found, but new exploits for new mechanics coming into CoA, definately.
For instance, when people used tying rope to ferry their less physically adept companions across dangerous climbs and such. I thought this was about as clear an exploit as ever there was, but instead the ruling wasn't so, so my judgement in that situation was not the same as the DM one. In other cases it may be the opposite way around, with me not realising an action is an exploit (eg. I never knew walking backwards out of combat was an exploit until it was mentioned in the forums. The main reason I did it generally was to avoid lag and avoid the chance of an AOO-fest happening with my character's pathfinding messing up, and then it does a little bit more than that)
All that said and done, deletion or banning is really quite a heavy-handed punishment. What about losing a level, losing gold? If after the player's been approached, told what they're doing is an exploit (and had some xp, gold or whatever removed to stop the character having an unfair advantage over other characters who didn't use this exploit) and they STILL carry on doing it, then by all means an account wipe is called for in my opinion as harsher punishment. I don't want to think that I may have a character i'm enjoying and having fun with suddenly deleted over a mistake.
I agree with everything TormiteInquisition posted.
@Moloch:
If I see its used multiple times, I'll probably delete their character and tell them not to use that exploit anymore.
This is something I don't agree with - I think in every case the first step should be a warning, and if it's felt that a character has gained an unfair advantage over other characters through continual use of this exploit, then what advantage could that be besides gold and xp? So remove some of one, the other or both and let them know that any more usage of this exploit will result in a character deletion/vault wipe.
@Moloch:
Sometimes, and recently this has happened, someone got caught cheating and rather than politely talking to the DM about it–went on a rampage posting ridiculous things and cursing at DMs and acting disruptive--that kind of behavior leads to even more discipline from the DMs.
This is not something I contest at all and OOCly grating behavior, be it griefing IG or abusing someone OOG is something no one wants to see in relation to CoA.
One thing though - i'm happy to trust the DMs to get on with this, but understanding just what the system involves is a lot more comforting. I'm less interested in knowing who was banned for what, but understanding the DM approach to the matter (like you posted, Moloch) is a lot more helpful.
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lizardman, let me clarify here:
No one gets characters deleted or DM killed over mistakes.
People do get characters deleted and DM killed for cheating.
These are two different things. If a DM punishes you for a mistake, then the DM has made a mistake and you should talk to us about it.
If a DM punishes you for cheating, then you cheated and obtained the normative punishment which is removal of the character or removal of XP/gold/loot via a DM kill.
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@--lizard-man--:
What about losing a level, losing gold?
OOC problems shouldn't be handled by punishing the character, but the player.
From a player point of view, I could care less about XP or gold. Ban me or warn me OOCly, I'm likelier to realize the severity of my mistake.
My tuppence.
