Multiclass v Pureclass Theme Discussion
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Fighters have become way too powerful however. A fighter with good loot is practicly unstoppable.
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I entirely dissagree olouth. I was stopped a lot of times with a high level good loot fighter or two.
Reflex saves, is all i really need to say.
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It be nice if there was a way for muliticlassed warrior mages to pick up a way to slowly reduce arcane spell failure as they leveled up as a innate figure. Perhaps something like 10 percent reduction for every none mage class matched with none mage level to stop minmaxing?
So a fighter 1/wizard 9 would have 10% as would a fighter 1/ wizard 9 . However a fighter 4 / wizard 4 would have a nice strong 40%.
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Sounds complicated and something that would work better in a hak, new prestige class really.
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Sounds complicated and something that would work better in a hak, new prestige class really.
Yer, but no haks or suitable prc on Arabel really.
Currently the main option for spellsword in the no arcane failure armors of hideousness on a certain low level quest. :wink: . Be nice if something better (or less embarrassing to wear!) could be found higher up the quest foodchain or hidden away in a shop somewhere for longer lasting spellswords.
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Or take bard levels?
Honestly, there's not much point in taking fighter levels as a wizard. Still spell will get you the ability to cast in armor and if you choose your spells right, you're just going to be buffinig yourself to fight anyway. Take cleric or something else, seriously, you're going to get roughly the same benefit and the added benefit of spells that further enhance your combat ability. Fully buffed up, Kathrine can handle a fair few threats and she is -far- from a 'prime' build in terms of combat.
I'm biased, though, the idea of combining fighters and wizards never made much sense to me. Suddenly you're trying to be two things at once and one doesn't compliment the other, really. You're trying to build stat packages in line with a paladin's needs (that is to say multiple stats) and adjust your combat tactics appropriately.
Now a -barbarian- wizard. . . I'd like to see that.
xD
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Sorc/barb, sure. I dont see the Savage Bookworm as an actual concept.
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Most of my characters are Pure Class characters, because I enjoy that. As a person, I tend to aim deep rather than wide when studying. So, Pure Classes it me. I hope that doesn't mean I create "Flat" characters. I hope I still build my characters with "RP" in mind.
And, as to being punished, you are not being punished. You make a choice and gain the benefits of that choice. No punishment involved.
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I like pureclass characters myself, but a big part of that stems from my DnD background. I'm from a day when there were racial restrictions, class combo restrictions and just not a lot of base classes to choose from, let alone whatever the hells a Prestige Class is. I have trouble identifying with the Sorcadin, the Bardbarian or the Drunk, and if I can't identify with a character in some way, I can't really role-play them. I would definitely say I'm drawn more to the Iconic characters - the puckish halfling thief, the raucous dwarven warrior, the loner half-elven ranger, the conniving evil human wizard. These iconic themes (some would argue stereotypical themes, I believe there's a subtle difference) tend to favor a single class build. There's wiggle room, sure, but for the most part the base class best represents that character theme to me.
Edit: Sorry - my point meandered away from me there. I don't really think of it in terms of what perks there are for taking a level of X unless I'm building toward a specific PrC (Arcane Archer, for instance, is probably best accomplished by some degree of multi-classing.) I just build the theme and let the perks come as they may. I would assume that single class specific items were created as such more due to OOC balance justifications than IC reasoning, which is absolutely an important consideration.
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I tend towards multiclass character myself, but that becuse multiclassing a good way to pick up diffrent ablities that help fit a sometimes complex picture. The other usefull tools for character building are feats (especialy profecency feats and skill focuses) and skill (including cross skills). There also often some room around a concept in the exacts.
For example is a stealthy urban greatswordsman a fighter with decent dex and stealth feats, a rogue with martial weapons, a rogue/fighter or just a plane ranger with little intrest in the wilds?
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@The:
Most of my characters are Pure Class characters, because I enjoy that. As a person, I tend to aim deep rather than wide when studying. So, Pure Classes it me. I hope that doesn't mean I create "Flat" characters. I hope I still build my characters with "RP" in mind.
I don't think anyone believes that pure-class characters are 'flat' in any way. At least, they don't have to be. The diversity I argued for earlier is precisely about that: diversity, meaning that both pure-class and multiclassed characters can be mechanically viable choices, as both types of builds support different types of potentially interesting and flavorful characters. That's one of the main arguments for the pure class perks in my opinion. There should be an approximately equal incentive to create both archetypical characters like the stoic ranger, bold knight and tough mercenary, as well as more exotic stuff like cleric/monk Zen Archers and elven Bladesigners. Really, any rules changes that encourages people to play what they want to without feeling that they're losing out mechanically is a good thing, IMHO. For example, if you want to play a noble savage type of Barbarian, it's great that you no longer effectively reduce your combat capabilities if you don't wear heavy armor and/or take levels in Fighter. You can still do that, however, which is also a good thing – it's just a different type of character now, and not a mechanically optimized no-brainer choice.
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Pure-class characters certainly have their benefits. In a way, you could say that they grow as the developers intended them to, at least until they hit 10th level (the exception to this being any form of caster with expectations beyond 4th circle magic). What I mean is that there is a preexisting growth pattern with pure-class characters that flows seamlessly. Rogues are a beautiful example of this, given that they receive many nifty feats without ever having to allocate feat selection to them (the sneak attack cycle, the evasions, et cetera).
With multi-classing, if you're a really stickler for survival builds like I am, you walk on a precarious tight-rope. Certain multi-classes border on dangerous whereas others are downright lethal. Had Benny's last character the Oracle not had the 14 Constitution she did, she likely would have died -even more- because of her being a Cleric/Wizard multiclass. While this is an exceptional flavorful choice and even quite common amongst clergy of magic-oriented deities, it simply lacks the mechanical power to stand up against its pureborn cousins (even with Count's very lovely store added in, which I tip my hat to).
Bard/Fighter is one that I love, especially when there are just as many or close to as many Bard levels as there are Fighter levels. Barbarian/Cleric and Barbarian/Sorceror also have the potential to be wicked awesome options, and I would argue that they could use a little love.
Now, I will say this. For as long as I've played CoA, this trend is starting to become noticeable - if a DM sees you doing something cool with a slightly "gimped" build, they -will reward you* because you did something cool-, and they will likely tailor it to help you be a steady contender against your contemporaries.
*Disclaimer: You have to do something cool first in order to get said awesome loot. You can't just…ask for it.
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Honestly, there's not much point in taking fighter levels as a wizard.
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You're trying to build stat packages in line with a....Maybe people might take classes (or feats) because of what it represents and they say the hell with the mechanical effectiveness, such as whether it has a point, or is hard to build.
I know of at least one person who started as a dextrous monk… then was slowly convinced and trained by a number of wizard tutors to turn wizard as it fit its religous notions and point-of-view of things... and eventually got trained in fighter so they could wear plate and try to join the army.
Talk about useless, monk 3/wiz 3/ftr 2 with high dex- you cant use the monk abilities nor cast in armor, so you have crappy AB, crappy HP, crappy damage, crappy AC.
ok saves, though.But if it's fun as opposed to "builds", as I would hope, from the subject "Theme Discussion" not "Effectiveness Discussion", then do whatever your character feels like they woudl do at that point in their life. Dont worry about whether it's effective or not.
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Honestly, there's not much point in taking fighter levels as a wizard.
…...
You're trying to build stat packages in line with a....Maybe people might take classes (or feats) because of what it represents and they say the hell with the mechanical effectiveness, such as whether it has a point, or is hard to build.
I know of at least one person who started as a dextrous monk… then was slowly convinced and trained by a number of wizard tutors to turn wizard as it fit its religous notions and point-of-view of things... and eventually got trained in fighter so they could wear plate and try to join the army.
Talk about useless, monk 3/wiz 3/ftr 2 with high dex- you cant use the monk abilities nor cast in armor, so you have crappy AB, crappy HP, crappy damage, crappy AC.
ok saves, though.But if it's fun as opposed to "builds", as I would hope, from the subject "Theme Discussion" not "Effectiveness Discussion", then do whatever your character feels like they woudl do at that point in their life. Dont worry about whether it's effective or not.
Plus most concepts, however crappy they might look on paper, can be made to work. Sometimes I find trying to make a character build work, dispute it going against common wisdom as a sane, can make some interesting and strangely strong character mechanically, as well as being way more fun than going for some mechanically safe bet at the expense of the concept.
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pure class crafters do tend to have access to more spells and with the right feats can make a multitude of useful items..such as potions, scrolls, wands and attuned gems
and pure class characters can be fun, if one has patience