Keep Conflict Alive
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@Moloch:
tl;dr version–-Should DMs help make sure PvP doesn't end in PKing, even when it may make sense IC, just to ensure that the fun generated by the conflicts continue?
It is my belief that players should be entrusted with the responsibility of gauging when PK is appropriate and by and large DMs shouldn’t interfere with it.
I like the idea of DMs augmenting enjoyable/interactive concepts however, I'm all for that, but for the purposes of this discussion I am less fond of “get out of jail freeâ€
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First and foremost, say what you want about the Cult. The group I play with have had both positive and negative interactions with them as far as OOC enjoyment goes. I'm still under the impression that they're a positive influence on the server as a whole. That doesn't mean they should be protected at all times, but it also doesn't mean they should be cast aside and PKed without much consideration. That said, this is not the topic on hand.
The topic on hand is PvP and DM involvement. As far as I'm concerned, DMs should stay out of it, but be present as much as possible. Witness major PvP in case of complaints, but only affect the outcome when it seems unfair, cruel, invasive to one parties RP, or just outright metagaming.
As far as the notion of alternate solutions to FD, there are many. You have to be creative, careful and clever. And most of all, you should understand that, in reality, you are a player. You can find a clever way to manipulate your character's personality to decide to let someone live. Or at least give them a chance. An honorable knight taking a one on one duel for instance. A greedy crime boss, demanding you become a bloodstone salesman until your debt is paid off….with interest. These are examples. Not rocket science.
Believe it or not, once someone is beaten in PvP, assuming a fair amount of RP led into it, I am a firm believer in conversion. Not necessarily forcefully or even necessarily a true "conversion" but more of a slow drift towards the dark or light side. With law mostly up in the air on coa, the winner of PvP has every IC right to make some kind of demands of their defeated. Delegate one of your faction goals to them without forcing them to convert or without belitting their RP. If the RP following becomes enjoyable for them, who knows. Maybe they'll consider actually converting. Or maybe they'll use it as an opportunity to spy on you. The point being, nobody loses their character, nobody is forced to compromise their character because of mechanics. They have a task. That is all the obligation that exists. If they were to take that and throw it in the face of the winner, sure...that's cause for more serious PvP. That's my thought anyhow.
Also, I'm not sure if anyone's thought of this, but.....medical science isn't exactly perfected in the setting of this server. If you beat the tar out of someone with your massive sword, who's to say you don't think they are dead? Beatdown, I've always taken to be an OOC courtesy. Sometimes, it's RPed out as an IC form of combat, but I would say that, if you black out some guy on the road and he doesn't move for a bit, depending on the character, you might just book it to avoid being charged with murder.
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medical science isn't exactly perfected in the setting of this server.
healing wands pwn modern medicine. Sorry I had to do that :P
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The DM team know what they are doing.
DM's get involved and should get involved in pvp, its up to thier judgement.
People could have rebelled against the duel if they were that bothered about it. Caden could have gone rogue, and flesh to stoned anyone that tried to let it happen, he could have turned the knight into a statue. Hell, he could have turned lhal into a statue, or tried.
People could have formed a group and rebelled against the queen by force, chaotic good can do that kind of thing. Hell the mage guild could have sponsored it and we could be in a civil war right now.
This whole idea that the cult is (or was) untouchable is utter crap. I'm sorry, I don't normally say things like that, but here's why.
Every member couldn't enter the city.
So, we can't buy basic supplies, see invis potions are hard to get, along with many many many many other basic equipments, such as healing wands. It also cuts off MANY quests, limiting our funds.People not in the cult, can walk around, buy whatever they want, quest with whoever they want, go where they want, make masses of gold and XP from a multitude of quests, many of which are very low risk. they can form large teams easily.
What made us unstoppable? why were we invincible? We weren't!
Bloodstones don't do everything you know, they have very limited spells within them, sure they are cheap, but we can't make a sending and then do every quest under the sun.
the duel made IC sense, knight breaks his code, gets an opportunity to regain it.
People saying they are not able to defeat us due to some OOC 'plot shield' or DM favourtism are deluded. For one you had the guys right there, all you needed to do was type .pvp full then hit them one more time. Done.
but you didn't, which is great! it's very similar to many of our pvp encounters with people who had bounties on our heads, or were planning to kill us. It carried on the story.
Now, why be annoyed when the person captured gets freed? you didn't kill him when you could. What, you want him to wait in jail for a week then get executed by an NPC? that's fun? no. it isn't.
Sure, we stole some gold from a few people, then again, you can just go quest for a bit with every single quest available to you, with any group on the server.
I remember when we were getting roleplayer recognition posts about our pvp. Where did that go?
I'll tell you where, people got annoyed by not winning for too long. they don't mind losing a few times, but once it goes beyond that, they get sour. We've lost a lot you know, a damn lot. Hell, Murji took on entire parties solo, and either got beaten up, or had to flee (normally mid quest) You don't see me complaining about it, I enjoyed it.
It's a game, if your not having fun, don't play, or find a way of playing that -is- fun for you. If you believe a group to be unbeatable, either leave them alone, or form an equally unbeatable team (and I dont mean grab a few people and gank them, I mean actuallly create your own 'cult')
How about a group of chaotic good guys that rob people on the roads to fund taking down the cult, for the greater good?
I know how you guys feel, I've played good as well, but wouldn't it be boring without things like the cult around? Quest quest quest, explore, occasional DM event, quest.
So. yeah.
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I'd like to see the DMs stop using 'dead or alive' bounties, and instead just alive. Being killed by a nameless bounty hunter will not be a happy end for any player, but beaten, tied and dragged back to the city can be full of fun options.
The EE currently have a bounty on my head for 2k. Scary, also OOCly. With all the fun I'm having, I'd hate to die suddenly by an anonymous player out for the price on my head. Simple remedy would be for all bounties to be 'alive', just for courtesy. If the same joe stranger beat me, ried me and dragged me before the EE, I'd squeeze enough RP out of that to maybe be happy with an FD.
All that above me…
Also, there seems to be some anger and defensiveness around the EE, but through all I've seen they've been INCREDIBLY courteous. They had the chance to essentially fuck up the whole Easthaven plot, but instead let kreswell live. Good job to all of you, faultless play.
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I don't know about that. I've seen Crey in the city plenty of times, Jack was spying on people in the Mage's Guild. EE has more or less full access to the city provided they have the ability to remain hidden/invisible.
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I think that the playerbase should take a look at how said evil faction has behaved, thus far.
In the case of the Slime Cult, incredibly well - they've afforded every OOC courtesy, and gone out of their way (at personal expense and risk) to make the game and experience more enjoyable for others.
To be honest, I think we should be thankful. Back before I took a hearty, extended break, people weren't generally this considerate in such large groups, myself included. (Edited in: The playerbase was also larger.)
With that being said (and to address my first sentence, once again) I think you should treat a faction in kind with how they've been treating others.
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I remember when I was a scarlet Talon, it sounds like Deja Vu, except all the other evil teams were against us too.
Where do I sign up for slime cultist status? I love riding sinking ships.
EDIT: When you go into PVP proactively expect the possibility of perma-death.
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tl;dr DMs are not "saving" the Cult, we've been actively trying to get people to avoid leaping to FD killing and the use of Gank Squads to end conflicts rather than resolving them with exciting events. To that end, we've saved the Cult, the Druids, the Red Harts, the Wizard's Guild, and numerous Less Known players, and even once I watched a scene just to make sure Eagleman escaped death.
Please note, when I've saved characters who are fun–in the slime cult situation--please look closely.
First person I saved was a druid FROM the cult.
Then the cult from a druid.
Then another DM saved a druid from the cult.
Then, as a DM, i finally let the druid kill the other druid--although I didn't pick sides on which would survive because both were fun but it felt that their story was at the critical level.
Then the cult's attacks (but keep in mind--no PKing yet) led to bounties being issued on their heads.
Then DMs saved the LAW ENFORCEMENT PCs from the cult.
Then the DMs saved a cultist from those same law enforcement PCs.
People are fixated on DMs helping out the Cult and seeming to ignore that actually, we've only saved them from groups we'd already SAVED from them.
If we were actually not intervening, here is the short history of what the Cult would have done.
Cultists would have killed the arch-druid, then hunted and killed the other druids.
Cultists would have captured the law enforcement officials and killed all of them.
Slime cult would now be ruling over slime empire of Arabel.
Instead, we helped ensure the good guys survived to keep fighting the bad guys--and balanced the equation to save the bad guys when the good guys got the upper hand.
It is fair, it is balanced in our approach. I'm actually not worried about that aspect.
I'm mostly curious I guess, do you guys want DMs saving people to draw out conflict and how would you like to see it done? Seriously, in this case, I honestly think the Cult would be in charge of Arabel and that army of good NPCs someone mentioned earlier would be dead if DMs (and the players in the Cult) had actually been FDing everyone early on.
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To answer the question directly, yes. All the best heroes and villains are loud and will instigate conflict, even if they are level 1. If a DM won't help them, who will?
The situation is more complicated, however. There's always got to be an end. So, how is it decided that the time has come for one side to win? Who decides which conflict that is?
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One addendum here, maybe I can ask the question better because only a few people have addressed this.
As players, do you want DMs to make sure player's conflicts and stories continue to a meaningful climax? or do you prefer we leave it entirely to the players involved?
IE: Should I have let the Cult kill Jacob at day one, which likely would have led to them killing a whole bunch of other people and currently being in charge of Arabel? Or should I have left the Cult to kill all the druids, Red Harts, and Wizard Guild PCs?
Additionally:
Do players want conflict resolved by big battles where the only resolution is that one side or the other has died–or do they prefer the climax of the conflict to come with real consequences.
IE: Is it preferable for players that conflict ends when one side or the other FD's the others and then those FD'ed decide to White Light.
OR
Is it preferable that DMs build the conflict over a few weeks or so, until we feel it has reached a critical point--and then see a final confrontation with serious results?
One situation where I think we dropped the ball was the Cabal. We saw a conflict build, it escalated to FD killings, people got upset, and eventually the players involved in the Cabal retired their characters because it was just too messy.
A better situation may have been to arrange a final DM sanctioned confrontation, one where players confronted the Cabal in some hideous ritual and either stopped them once and for all, or lost and suffered the terrifying consequences of failure.
It is logical the slime cult would be something PCs and NPCs want ended now, but is it the player bases preference that that just means PCs and NPCs team up to end the threat--or that DMs arrange a big and final confrontation.
Because I get the feeling that the DM effort we've had here, of using IC means to prolong the conflict and tell interesting stories isn't working as well as we'd hope.
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I would really like the slime empire of Arabel, can we do that next?
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It's in the works. Expect drastic changes to the module after this weekend!
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Because I get the feeling that the DM effort we've had here, of using IC means to prolong the conflict and tell interesting stories isn't working as well as we'd hope.
Don't feel this way because if you allow players alone to determine the outcome of stories, it would all end in a week for either side. Cult would have died quick, druids would have been wiped out early, etc…
No fun.
I would not have allowed myself to be PKed if it were left to me. I am glad the DMs called this because it created more awesome. They are better story tellers than I am.
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I guess it entirely depends on the concepts being played, to be honest Moloch.
-If- a group of characters, pc's, wish to destroy the world, or at least some of civilization, then it should take ALOT more than ganking people in the wilderness with their superior pvp skills.
If memory serves me right… There are some... 500 Red Hart soldiers in the region, and about the same with the Mage Guild, the Cormyrians, and the sheriffs.
These numbers should matter. These numbers should have a say.
If they wish to destroy Easthaven, more than killing off the sheriffs, and pcs should be involved.
They should provide intrigue, they should deliver something IG which they give their opponents -some- way to plot against.
And once they have earned it, through fun and adventure, they should be allowed the chance to take out the major npcs and pcs.
They should be confronted by knight brigades, they should have to overcome more than being able to beat the living daylight out of other players.
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My opinion? Get the Devil Dragon to recruit them as her spearpoint, after some softening with big bad orcs.
Reward? Lordship of Arabel.
Failure: DeathIts time to throw in the cards this weekend.
Double or nothing.
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I think the conflict of Gromfia was a brilliant conclusion to a multitude of characters. Whole factions died out and others rose to power. For those that have been putting time and effort into building conflict and altering the server in meaningful ways, it should be awarded, if not within their character's life, then when their character dies. Perhaps that change is undone in the future by others' work, but at least there is a legacy of history. So, in short, it's preferable to have a sanctioned event, I'd say. It should be considerred, however, that this should not necessarily mean that either side actually dies. If an alternate resolution or IC continuation of the story appears and is pursued, then the notion of this final climax should not be set in stone. If one of the goodguys turns out to be a weasel and offers the badguys an escape route, the plot continues, even though the event was to "resolve the conflict." And then it would be likely at that point that, with something accomplished and a real change created, perhaps mobs would seek out these badguys that clearly blew something up or assassinated Lhal or something and FD them. not part of the sanction, but a direct result.
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I have just read through my last many points, and need to say something…
I am not pissed off at the Cult, in any way. I applaud their desire to be bad guys, and the intrigue they bring to the server. Every player I know within it, have proven time and time again that they can provide a fun story for others to enjoy.
As such, none of what I have written is personally directed at them.However, I am NOT a fan of forced upon PVP and conflict.
I have played here for seven years, and never in my life did I make a character that engaged an enemy more because they killed off my former one. I always strive my best to avoid the whole "You killed my father, prepare to die".
Yet when a group are so up in your face as the cult have been, they have divided the server into "Either with us, or against us". There is no middle ground, there is no way of avoiding them, unless you choose not to log in.
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I think the Cult is great, because they seem to have a lot of OOC courtesy yet they are still scary as hell.
The only point I'd like to make is that instead of Lhal ordering the duel to free Zrukk (because to me it seems odd a CG ruler would order such a thing) it would have been much better had the Commander of the Red Harts order it. Then you would have had a big conflict between the Mages Guild and the Red Hart factions over whether it would be allowed to go on, possibly leading to a greater conflict between two main factions as well as the Cult. Also, it seems like it would have made more sense for the Knights leader to order such a duel then Lhal anyways.
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Some people are getting very defensive about this, reading the last page or so. As an uninvolved person, this doesn't come off to me as an attack on the Cult's PvP standards or even general ettiquette, who have done an excellent job of a PvP-heavy concept.
Back on topic, I much prefer DMs overseeing or even arranging for really big showdowns. As an involved player, it can be very difficult to keep a level head in a PvP situation if you don't have excellent communication with the person you're bouncing against, if you're not confident that your character's story won't be ended prematurely rather than grow out of the PvP.
Yet when a group are so up in your face as the cult have been, they have divided the server into "Either with us, or against us". There is no middle ground, there is no way of avoiding them, unless you choose not to log in.
Again, this is not meant as an attack on the players involved in the Cult. If there's little option for players trying to stop the Cult attacking people but to start rounding them up, then that's exactly what's going to happen. This is the same way I feel about apocalyptic plots when they show up - they tend to span several characters at least, and are always so paramount to everything that it's impossible not to take a stance against them - and by their definitions, 90% of the time or if you're playing a sane character, you will end up having to oppose this force that's in the face of every character on the server. So simply put, don't take it personally when you do get people you've never seen before taking part in trying to capture you. Take it as a compliment that you've such a grip on the city's throat that every Tom, Dick and Harry feels obliged to try and do something - anything - to stop you. Now just give them something else to chase but you yourselves somehow.
DMs should certainly intervene to try and keep conflicts going and keep the server interesting, and especially to stop players doing anything silly and selfish in the heat of the moment (guilty as charged). There just needs to be more of a focus on trying to weaken each other through means other than thinning the herd or stealing equipment. Too much of the action going on is direct, and that's leading to any frustration in my opinion - because if the only solution people see is to act directly, only to find (as it should be) that it's not within CoA PvP guidelines, it is only going to frustrate things. More rivalry, less ganking.