The CoA Magic Level - A Discussion
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A few of us have been discussing the CoA magic level on IRC, and one point came up that I thought I would open a thread about as a point of interest.
What do people think of the current magic level in terms of plots and items?
I for one dislike too much planar travel and too many dragon based plots and events (don't get me wrong, I love dragons) but I feel too much makes it less awesome when it does happen. The Civil War plot was, for me, really a high point when it comes to plots and events, I loved it.
I also love grit when it comes to a server, where full plate is hard to come by and magical items are really revered and cherished. With some of the items you can buy (I seem to recall there being race themed ''+1 shops'' littered around the server) I feel CoA has gone away from this vibe and is quite ''magic happy''
I'd be interested to hear what other people think about this kind of stuff
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I like the current magic level myself.
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I like magic items, I want magic items, I need magic items. Same goes for plots. :D
I like the current level of magic. I am involved in a dragon plot (my first!) and for someone who has such a hard time getting nice gear, I love the ability to easily find +1 items. About damn time, I say.
Less grit, more magic! :wink:
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I'm with caek on this one. I like a world where full plate is a luxury of the rich, and magical weapons and armor would be near-worshipped and carefully guarded secrets of those few lucky enough to possess them. A world where wizards are not unheard of, but not exactly treated as "just another guy", or fighters not popping potions like tic-tacs, trivializing magic to a great extent.
I like planes, I like magic, but I do feel like it's sometimes really overdone. Just never made sense to me that every adventurer around has such great knowledge of outer planes, or that fighting demons and outsiders are spoken of in the same casual way as a rabbit-hunt, or there's a new dragon and/or demon lord to fight every couple of months.
Factions like the Eclestian Order or Ramiel's chosen tolerated but largely disdained as doomsayers, few believing the threats they face could possibly affect them. Noble houses vying for power. Less apocalyptic stuff.
Too much tends to take the wonder out of it. It's no longer the stuff nightmares are made of. They become common, mundane.
"It's a demon!" "No sweat, my +1 sword can bypass it's DR." I'd prefer "Steel bounces off it! There's no way to stop it! How do we stop it!" Priest and wizard are consulted because Joe adventurer cannot even understand a foe he can't beat with steel. Panic everywhere. Finally, solution cooked up to enchant weapon and kick vrock's ass.
Demons are scary. They're supposed to be scary. People should fear them, even the least of them, utterly evil, utterly alien.
Granted, this is being done after a fashion, but hopefully, my views are clear with the example.
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Please realize I'm being very serious and not trolling, but let's translate what you're really saying.
I'm with caek on this one. I like a world where full plate is a luxury of the rich, and magical weapons and armor would be near-worshipped and carefully guarded secrets of those few lucky enough to possess them.
"I like a world were only a handful of players have good gear. This is sure to create envy, unhappiness, and allegations of favortism. Plus, dying constantly because I have -1 Rusty Full Plate is fun."
We know this as DMs, because we use to have -1 AB and AC items in stores. No one bought them. People actually went without a -1 AB rusty weapon to save up and do Fed Ex quests to afford the regular mundane stuff.
I like planes, I like magic, but I do feel like it's sometimes really overdone. Just never made sense to me that every adventurer around has such great knowledge of outer planes, or that fighting demons and outsiders are spoken of in the same casual way as a rabbit-hunt, or there's a new dragon and/or demon lord to fight every couple of months.
"I'd really prefer we didn't have new plots every month. We should just hunt bandits. That is much more fun than facing a balrog in Moria."
Again, seriously. That's what players want to do in a fantasy game. More so, the setting is a fantasy setting. The Forgotten Realms is a high magic, high fantasy setting. We've gone for a low magic, medium fantasy feeling.
Your views are really clear, but in the end, players like Caek and Relonor, you're really in a very small minority of players.
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That's not what he's saying at all, and not saying he wants -1 Rusty Plate! Be more inventive, not just have blanket +1 stuff available to buy in stores (gold isn't hard to come by at all)
Maybe we are in the minority, but it's an interesting topic of discussion at least!
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I like planes, I like magic, but I do feel like it's sometimes really overdone. Just never made sense to me that every adventurer around has such great knowledge of outer planes, or that fighting demons and outsiders are spoken of in the same casual way as a rabbit-hunt, or there's a new dragon and/or demon lord to fight every couple of months.
Rel, you know I love you and all, but if you feel this way, you should be playing Scrabble, not a D&D game. 8) I know you like to be the only one with all the plots and knowledge making everyone feel like noobs, but come on…
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I like both.
I liked the lower-magic CoA and I like the CoA where I get to tell fun stories that wouldn't have been possible 3 years ago. If I'd like to change anything it would be the difficulty level. It should inflate with the magic level. Shit is way too easy now.
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@Khamal:
I know you like to be the only one with all the plots and knowledge making everyone feel like noobs, but come on…
That's more than a little unfair.
Also, it's very possible to enjoy something even if you aren't 100% in approval of every aspect of it.
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I took that as good-natured trolling. I hope it was.
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Trolling? On CoA? Heavens no.
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This may sound like a joke but I am serious.
I felt better about always ending up in the fugue when I had no magic items and was saving up for a masterwork longsword. Now I am dying with the equipment I always thought would save me. Makes me respawn to corpse more too to retrieve the items, which adds to more deaths.
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CoA is serious stuff.
We never troll.
Just ask Deadlock.
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This may sound like a joke but I am serious.
I felt better about always ending up in the fugue when I had no magic items and was saving up for a masterwork longsword. Now I am dying with the equipment I always thought would save me. Makes me respawn to corpse more too to retrieve the items, which adds to more deaths.
Well then, +5 everything now!
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@Khamal:
I know you like to be the only one with all the plots and knowledge making everyone feel like noobs, but come on…
That's more than a little unfair.
Also, it's very possible to enjoy something even if you aren't 100% in approval of every aspect of it.
You know I always give you a hard time about this, Rel! :wink: I do appreciate you letting me tag along in your plots (after considerable whining and crying on my part since I am too clueless to find stuff on my own…)
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To Orin: Typically, equipment is pretty useless in terms of survivability and usefulness, that is almost entirely based on how many consumables you have, potions, wands, etc.
Onto the general discussion though.. I like the current magic level a lot. Magic items aren't particularly rare, however, powerful ones still are. Remember, Forgotten Realms is a high magic setting. We're still very low level in comparison, you're not going to find many +2 things. And those that do exist, even up to +3, are only good against very specific enemies, usually coming with massive negatives. Awesome.
Magic level aside, the adventure part I'm not as sure about. I haven't really seen much planar travel myself, but I'd prefer dragons weren't being killed all willy and being replaced by new ones. After Zxhoo and Ithylibhor, it doesn't really feel right to introduce another dragon (though there's a few), just to get killed by low level PCs.
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I like how things are, whether the server is high magic or low magic the plots will still make it fun.
My only complaints are on subjects that can't be helped. Quest difficulty stays the same while better items keep being added to the module, I've noticed a few quests had their difficulty vamped up so, cudos to whoever did that.
As for dying more often, Orin sorry man but, survival is one of the primary instincts in most creatures, caution is one of its prime tools. If you take the time to rp a bit of caution, planning and fear. Sure the quest will take longer but heck, more rp, less death, more sense of accomplishment.
Not saying people should all start shooting from a distance behind the expertise tank, just saying people shouldn't run into a room with their eyes closed thinking "hehe they only have a 1 in 20 chance of hitting me, what could possibly go wrong" To then cuss out in the fugue because they failed a will save.
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I don't mind the magic level on the server, though I had no problems with it before when things were much harder to come by (which made those few things even more treasured, so I can understand where some people are coming from).
As for plots, I suppose I partially agree with the OP, in that we've had some really gigantic plots happen all within a short period of time and I feel like a lot of the effects of that are missed out because too much was going on at once. It always seemed to me that there should be a gradual build up of smaller interconnected plots that lead to one big city/world threatening plot at a time would be a better way of getting people working with/against each other then having several bigger plots going on at once.
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Jared, if the one major plot thing was true, the entire way the server works would have to be changed, back to v3? prior? I dunno, but the point is, players can create plots themselves, sure some might link to DM created ones, but some might not, and some might get really big, world changing even, so if theres only one world changing plot going on at one time, then players cant create plots anymore. See my logic here?
I love the way players can create plots and change the server now, aint broken, dont fix it. The way plots progress is another issue entirely which I dont have an answer for so wont discuss it.
As for Magic level -
+1 stuff, pretty standard among adventurers.
+2 stuff, focussed on one enemy type and very very rare, probably DM loot.
+3 stuff and above, focused on one enemy type, used only during the end of a plot, only DM loot, removed after plot completed in some way.It's something like this now, I think, and I think it's fine. The 'problem' Caek and Relonor have, could be solved easily, by putting in more enemies, that make you wish you had a +2 weapon.
And then making the crafting system provide stuff that can handle these creatures, and dotting gems about the server (I think they might be? havent seen any out of quest areas though)
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As far as magic level is concerned, either way is not really a bother for me. No matter how many awesome loot my characters get, I'll still suck at swift thinking and tactics, whjich is what really matters in scripted quests and PVP alike (latest example this morning when I forgot I could invis with the wand).
I do tend to prefer less flashy, more down-to-earth plots and stories, but honestly, the thing that peeves me the most is not dragons being slain left and right or major threats to the fabric of existence arising every season, but when plots lack apparent internal logic. Not being able to find out a given plot's innards is just frustrating, but falling down a plot hole is more than annoying. I haven't seen that many plots in depth to really go past the 'wants to know more' anyway.However, I think I still have logs of Gurm/Eliphas dialogs where they would learn of some threat and go "This region is cursed sigh" just for the comical effect.