Reagents
-
I took an intrest in this when i first learned of it but to be honest i quickly found the notion of the new crafting/plot solving system rather bland.
Now i know it was never ment to be a way to solve plots or make powerful magic items etc..But lets face it that what it is and if you want that image to change you as dm's will have to change it make sure it dosent work out the way it has been doing. -
One more for illegality of it. If its through a ritual going terribly bad, even better. Actually make even death of PCs a possibility.
E.g. Wizard completes the ritual but the final part requires a will check with 50-50 odds to kill the wizard or driving him insane completely. Then those items will only be used by characters daring, who probably are about to complete their lifetime purpose, not just a DM plot that's part of a bigger plan or a way to advance their interests. A real showdown for them. Swan song like..
And if they succeed I bet it ll be more rewarding.
The will save described can be as hard or easy as the DM in charge wants, having seen how the character or group has acted to acquire those reagents, or how much fun was watching them.
-
The main issue seems to be that the system was intended to promote all kinds of desirable things ('adventure' and 'plot development'), but instead has become just another expansion to the existing sets of 'collect them all to go on to the next step' items, that have always been both looked for directly, bought with money, or bartered for with goods or services. These favor people with lots of playing time to sink into the game, i.e. quantity over quality. Also, because it's now more or less formalized, it's even easier to be a 'farmer', as you know people will 'soon' want your esoteric reagent, instead of having to collect lots of 'dummy' items that might be needed by someone sometime.
I don't think this would be a problem in a closed economy, where money is just a neutral way to keep track of 'work done', so it wouldn't really matter if you gathered the components directly, or did a lot of other things that added up to enough surplus money to be able to buy the reagent (i.e. trade an equivalent amount of effort for it).
Unfortunately, the economy of CoA is not closed, and X amount of money doesn't really translate well into Y amount of work done. I suppose that's one of the reasons you can't use money alone to buy e.g. a temple. Using the money to buy a couple of reagents and then using those to 'buy' a temple shouldn't work either, then.
Using hedge magic is just one of the options you have to spend your game time on. If people see it as the most viable way to the almost exclusion of all other ways, and you think that's not desirable, then you can either try to tweak the hedge magic system so it becomes less popular, and/or you could tweak some of the other ways to spend time to become more popular. Since the hedge magic is the newest entry on the block, I'd go for tweaking that, or you'll probably end up with a form of inflation. There's been quite a few suggestions on how to make hedge magic a less popular way of getting things done.
P.
-
luteijn, you tend to be one of the few people here really looking at the problem the way the DMs do.
It isn't that people want to use the system, I mean, that is exactly WHY we created it. Before hand, if you wanted to pursue a PC plot and do something-there was no way unless a DM happened to want to help.
Now PCs can pursue PC plots on their own, and that is what the system is for. The problem is PCs who choose not to pursue the plot themselves, but rather to purchase the solution.
Making the system 'illegal' won't fix that problem. In fact, it'll make it harder for casual players to get involved in it.
I'm focused on the actual problem, not the symptoms.
-
Ok, this sounds like you would need to find some way to distinguish the two cases of people trying to purchase a solution, and people trying to themselves pursue the plot.
Could there be invisible items or tokens for this? In the sense that certain reagents only spawn in their location if this token is present on a character? The Actively-Pursuing-Plot token might appear perhaps from a mixture of automatically-scripted and DM-initiated events, then. Even if maybe only for a small subset of reagents.
E.g., Say someone visits a large number of reasonable but false locations for an ingredient - or an unknown location must be visited, and if a certain text input is detected in that place, it spawns an invisible token. Or a DM simply notices someone is actively pursuing something? Or - in some cases, it might be about having a visible item on the character that could be given to someone else by the active plot-pursuer, then disappear by being "used" after a very small number of uses.
Some of these would probably favor people with lots of time over more casual players - but it might be an idea with the proper mix.
EDIT: Actually, thinking about it, this might be something one could try to apply other situations like mining (I do not know if that even exists in the module anymore, though). Something that tends to differentiate farming from active rp-related exploration is the visiting of "useless" yet plausible places. E.g., if it is necessary to first visit useless place X or useless place Y to get an invisible token to find something at useful place Z - this might be difficult to figure out for someone who is trying to skip the exploration and rp part (even more so if probabilities are involved).
-
Make reagents no drop, so farmers would have to either be present at the ritual, or lead the buyer to the place where the reagent spawns.
-
A good idea, but will have the problem of making them impossible to steal, or if someone runs and picks it up while every one else is occupied in combat or something.
-
I don't think that technical tricks can solve that without sacrificing too much of the systems advantages.
I'd rather change the ritual itself, as it is where there is connection between the DMs and the players.
If players should include at least one person who has originally recovered the reagents for an increased chance of success selling reagents would slow down. You can't just buy it, you have to ask people to help… now a red hart would never help a zhent agent, would he? wait.... khm.I suggest to require them not only to be present, but participate. for example if a huge orc warrior sold you a greater bullette carapice, you should invite him, and make him play the act of defeating the bullette much like if he was dancing a shaman-dance or something... or anything creative.
perhaps requirement is too strong to suggest, as it would recreate the time zone issues...
((note. I'm very tired when I write this. It's got deleted and rewritten multiple times, but it's still not clear enough. sorry, can't write anything better just now, I hope you still get the idea. :) Feel free to ask questions! :D ))
-
The reagents are an alternative way to 'prove' effort invested to getting noticed by a DM directly or indirectly. Perhaps not the best, as you can visit 10 useless places, and 3 useful ones and not find anything (or the wrong things), or just get lucky and run into a stag you don't even need by accident while doing a fivestar delivery run. But that's why you usually need several, and I suppose buying/bartering a few isn't a huge problem.
An alternative would be having the players 'document' their adventures with screenshots, diary entries, chat logs, small reports to/from 3rd parties etc. to 'prove' involvement. This 'paperwork' would not appeal to everyone, and would mean a lot of work for DMs to go through, and you'd still have to go to all kinds of places where you'd eventually find reagents anyway, as they were supposed to work that way.
Other people might have good ideas of how to prove their involvement, perhaps when you apply for your perk, you could propose how you'd like to 'pay' for it…
-
Hmm … why not make the reagent undroppable - e.g. cursed? That way players will only go after them when they know they need them and all the farming stops. Only a DM would be able to pick them off the character once they run the ritual.
Or give the items 2 options - one to destroy (in case the character is heavily overloaded, needs to run, ...) or to use it in the ritual at which point it could create a placable with some visual effect or just a series of visual effects.
added - and just case, add a line to the on death script that checks and destroys all reagents in the dropped bag so nobody can work his way around
added 2 - and then make sure HarryMcScary leaves his sticky fingers off the DM kill button for once :D
-
Like, you know, four posts above?
-
As I've said before, I don't see a problem with having regeants selling and tradeing, or using them to complete quests. This is because, as previously stated…
1. The DM's ultimately have the decision of what the outcome is, or even if you -can- use regeants for a ritual.
2. Like said many times before, regeants are NOT reliable. Using them in rituals can lead to even the exact opposite effect. For example, Immersea. We wanted to save it, ended up burning the entire city to the ground…not what we were going for. >_>
In short, sure, spend thousands of gold pieces purchasing regeants. But if you use a ritual to end world hunger and end up actually causing the next ice age, don't be surprised.
-
Swifty I se what your saying. And I do agree. But CoA_Wizard has said it the best I think to stop farming and the gross misconduct with the hedge regents.
-
If I rephrase what Moloch said above, the reagent system is a way to have the setup of a PC plot that needs DM involvement be entirely managed by the interested PCs' actions, without needing DMs IG to set up quests, encounters etc… The PCs just need to keep the DMs up to date with their goals and what they're going to collect. Obtaining the reagents is the way to demonstrate dedication to the PCs' goal.
If I understood correctly, organising parties to get the reagents is the preferred way, but stealing them from faction X also is encouraged. Even buying them from mercenaries may be, or trading them with allied factions.
What is frowned upon is for uninvolved PCs to become reagent farmers and resellers, and for plotmakers to be their customers. Telling players OOC to stop doing that likely is just as frustrating and time-consuming as it sounds.Making reagents no-drop would solve the problem, but would also de facto make stealing and acceptable trading require DM involvement on the spot, which negates the intended benefit.
For theft, this would fall in the category where you'd require DM supervision for PvP aimed at stealing reagents, like you already do for other PvP actions not resolved by the game mechanics. I don't know how acceptable that is.
Provided it is, this leaves the problem of finding a way to peacefully trade no-drop reagents in a way DMs can have some sort of control on without it being too much hassle.If I did get everything right, then wouldn't it be possible to find a way for DMs to grant to a given PC (or group of PCs) the possibility to take the reagent in question from another given PC in advance? Maybe also provide that means with a time limit? This way, the DM can OOCly tell the buyer that the trade is not acceptable. I think that sort of thing was already suggested in this thread.
For the second problem, i.e. trying to use reagents in DM plots, if there isn't yet a note in the post describing reagents OOC, saying it doesn't work unless the DM says so, then there should be. I think it was outlined twice in this thread alone.
-
…What is frowned upon is for uninvolved PCs to become reagent farmers and resellers, and for plotmakers to be their customers. .
Why ?
longterm,
whats the difference between Group A spending a lot of time looking for reagents and using them.
-and-
Group B farming them and selling them to Group A who spent a lot of time doing something else to get the money ?Either one involves people doing something for a lot of time in dangerous places. Why care if Group A does it for gold, and Group B did a bunch of other stuff, assumably dangerous, to get the gold ?
It's still the same amount of activity, overall.
-
Because, Group A can just do the same three quests over and over again, shell out their gold and get something great for nothing more than grinding qwest, possibly with their three buddies and NEVER involving anyone else.
I don't think its a question of activity, it connectivity with the rest of the server. You can CONNECT with the rest of the server by saying we're going out to search for X by getting a multitude of players, gathering up X with these people, and THEN trying to do something amazing with them.
ACTIVITY can be chasing chickens and running bread ever reset with your band of five friends and then buying reagents and ritualing the Uber Sward of PwnFist the Mighty, Avatar of Trom and Slayer of Bale.
-
But… if those same three people search for reagents over and over and get somehting great for nothing more than grinding searching.
Whats the differnce? -
The difference is that doesn't happen, and even if it did, they still opened themselves to different and unpredictable encounters, which may or may not involve other players. Perhaps while they're searching some group decides to attack them to steal what they already have, something quite not possible when they're inside a quest area.
-
Undroppable may be a good idea, but the two problems from this is if you want to trade regeants with someone, and whe nyou actually want to do it. That player may not have every component, several will likely have it. Getting all players on for the ritual may be a problem.
Since a DM has to be involved beforehand for a ritual, and a DM needs to know beforehand what this ritual is and what components it needs - make it mandatory for players to PM said DM about what they have done/how they got each component? A little bit more work sure, but that may help.
Now that I think about it though, how many Hedge magic rituals have been -done- by players. Does it matter if farmers are selling regeants to the people who actually -do- the rituals? Cause those people who perform the rituals are usually the ones who have been spending a lot of time trying to gather everything, going to places/making adventure and so on. I have never heard any players -doing- rituals that has not put in a lot of effort into gathering everything, which includes sometimes buying components.
Sure, the farmers get extra gold, but who cares? Those type of people farm quests anyways.
But the plotmakers, the people they involve others and -do- the rituals, did in fact create adventure for themselves and others. And the hedge magic does indeed go wrong.It took me MONTHS to gather the components to burn down the shipyard in immersea. Instead it burnt down the town. Was I disapointed that all my effort was for nothing? No, it was rather cool I got to burn down a town. Though all the effort and adventure that went into getting all those regeants (And I think I only bought one of those regeants) is what was fun, and seeing the end result was fun. Making new allies to help get all the regeants, was fun. All the roleplay was fun.
Im sure your disapointed that players are farming hedge magic things, but the purpose of putting them there is still being fillfilled I think. The DM's know how many rituals have been done. Are there any questionable ones that might not have had any effort put into it? I've done seven now, and theres been a hell of a lot of effort in mine.
Although I admit going to the places to find those things does start to get boring, since there are only so many places to go no matter how many differernt routes I take. Though its always been very fun anyways!
Edit: Players do need to mix things up a bit though. A lot of plots I see always has some hedge magic ritual planned in it, it can rather get redundant sometimes if is the -only- solution players think of for that plot. Lucky the one's I've done were either on the fly rituals (Opening a portal, creating a temporary weopon to destroy an alter) but the longer one's I've done always had other plans, but sometimes not either.
-
Eliphas speaks much wisdom here, as befits one who has guarded the forests and wildlands of Arabel for many years.