A thought, and perhaps a challenge to the playerbase
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Biggest powerbuild around is pure cleric though ;)
Depends VERY on the build. But any cleric with 16+ wisdom is a boon to any party for sure.
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I don't understand how to play a multiclass character effectively. Apparently I'm slightly retarded in that manner. So I stick to pures.
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Without sounding like an ass… If you have played coa long enough, it doesnt matter what class you pick, you are still going to rock. My first real pc on coa was a 8 wis 8 charisma rogue/ranger/fighter. Horrible powerbuild.
And as time as progressed, i have made my chars weaker and weaker.
Once you break down CoA and nwn mechanics, you can make a pure ranger one of the most powerful mechanical chars while in a padded armor.
I agree with LaF however. When you find coa too easy, start nerfing. Nerf the shit out of your char. You can become powerful as hell with 15 charisma on a fighter. You dont need 22 strength on your fighter at lvl 8 to be able to survive.
As to the whole, dont multiclass... Multiclasses work. But, perhaps instead of taking rogue lvls at lvl 7 with your towershield warrior, "because it makes sense" why not take it at lvl 1? Instead of the bastardsword... Why not a short sword?
Instead of the pure cleric in a fullplate and with a towershield... why not a leather armor and crossclass with rogue, to make your bloke more adventuring?
I hate clerics in fullplates, and i became sad as hell when i saw that the new cleric shop only sold fullplates.
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a few interesting points about here!
Overly powerful builds are annoying as hell.
They suck the fun out of events by either making them to easy or unballance them by requiring spawns that kill everyone but them.
Having been told by Moloch a while back that the full party death that we encountered in a spiced quest was largely down to trying to balance something for my min/max looted halfling i would take this to heart!
I'm playing a vanilla ranger (mmm ranger flavour) and I was actually pretty surprised how awesome they can be, considering how few of these used to be on the server (though this has changed recently).
Seems that not so long ago there were 4 level 9 rangers on the server, a good proportion of the higher level characters at the time. We should have so gone ooc to do Kantheas….
But having managed to make a frontlining ranger using nothing greater than medium armour, and previously a pure mage wielding a greataxe who alos routinely frontlined, i think that it does show that pure class characters can be mechanically successful.
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@O'louth:
I hate clerics in fullplates, and i became sad as hell when i saw that the new cleric shop only sold fullplates.
That made me really sad too. I could barely carry one with an empty inventory. I wore mundane chainmail and a large shield (a total of 6 AC!) and I still kicked ass! Hell, I had 10 con, str and dex too and despite this I never lacked in contribution to a party (except on lv 1 when I was still new to the playstyle).
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I checked out that shop, there's so many of those suits of armor, I'm not suprised they're all the same AC. I expect the DM had to make a call and just do one AC rather than make 3 or 4 of each. It'd also be a pain to sift through them all to find your deity then.
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No, H. Pure classes are almost always stronger than mixes, caster or not. Certain builds may be better for pvp, and etc. but generally speaking, pure classes are best, as they have clear roles, and are maximized toward filling said roles. I'll take a pure fighter over a fighter/rogue any day.
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My point is a caster who multiclasses loses Caster Level; he misses out on damage, duration, spell penetration. In other words, he misses out on everything that makes spells good. Melee classes generally sacrifice little and gain more for multiclassing.
What the game was scripted to grant a given class doesn't define a role, because you can tweak the ability scores and feats to make a pure fighter that will be horrible at fighting (but was trained in the army or what have you, thereby justifying the class choice). A Fighter/Rogue, to use the cited example, will be frontlining with 2 more AC and doing 1d6 Sneak Attack damage than pure. He sacrifices Discipline stone for Cure Serious wands; the rest is all gain, power-wise.
This is getting off-topic, and this is why the word "balance" should be abandoned by NWN players. It's up to play style more than anything, and luck, too. Balance in general is about looking at "what can be done" and curtailing that which is impossible to compete with, and/or boosting that which is nearly powerless. This is mechanical and has nothing to do with flavor. Every action-heavy server ever has claimed to find a better balance, but it comes down to favoring one playstyle that enough people can get on board with for a while until they get bored and find a new "imba" thing that must change and the cycle continues.
In the end, on a role-playing server where you're encouraged to play your stats, there are no strenghts and weaknesses inherent to any given class: it's potential strenght and potential weakness, depending on the player's choices.
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What the game was scripted to grant a given class doesn't define a role, because you can tweak the ability scores and feats to make a pure fighter that will be horrible at fighting (but was trained in the army or what have you, thereby justifying the class choice). A Fighter/Rogue, to use the cited example, will be frontlining with 2 more AC and doing 1d6 Sneak Attack damage than pure. He sacrifices Discipline stone for Cure Serious wands; the rest is all gain, power-wise.
He also sacrafices at least one bonus feat, and d10 for d6 on a hit point dice. And in my case, since I usually was the main tank, I rarely used sneak attack anyway. But that's not the point.
There are some obvious powerbuilds out there, sure. But on the other hand - sometimes you might want to take the rogue level for (DUM DUM DUMMM) diplomatic skills. Or becouse since you are a tricky gnomish bugger, UMD, Open Lock and Disarm Traps.
On the other hand - a class should reflect one's character. If someone who calls himself knight or any other sort of honorable warrior has rogue levels, and other characters spot him using sneak attack, it should give them something to think about hypocrisy.
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- sometimes you might want to take the rogue level for (DUM DUM DUMMM) diplomatic skills.
No you don't.
I've never seen Bluff, Intimidate, Persuade roll used if not to obtain a bit more gold at the end of the quests.
On DM quests I have very rarely seen the request to roll a "diplomatic" skill roll. (I have to say that I have not been part of DM quests for a long time so I may be wrong).
I have however witnessed in many occasion the heavy use of spawns and combat intensive scenes to resolve a standoff/situation or other sort of mechanical automatic rolls (i.e. UMD, open locks, disarm traps, search, the 1 point in tumble that allows a chance to avoid the AOO when running away etc). So I do understand why when a fighter multiclasses to Bard or Rogue, he invests in UMD, Tumble, massive use of wands and Healing song and does not maximize persuade or the bluff skill.
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Perhaps not on DM quests, but i've certainly been present for a DM asking diplomacy skill rolls in non-violent situations a lot more with recent characters; it's resulted in some quite eye-opening results sometimes. ;)
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- sometimes you might want to take the rogue level for (DUM DUM DUMMM) diplomatic skills.
No you don't.
I've never seen Bluff, Intimidate, Persuade roll used if not to obtain a bit more gold at the end of the quests.
On DM quests I have very rarely seen the request to roll a "diplomatic" skill roll. (I have to say that I have not been part of DM quests for a long time so I may be wrong).
I have however witnessed in many occasion the heavy use of spawns and combat intensive scenes to resolve a standoff/situation or other sort of mechanical automatic rolls (i.e. UMD, open locks, disarm traps, search, the 1 point in tumble that allows a chance to avoid the AOO when running away etc). So I do understand why when a fighter multiclasses to Bard or Rogue, he invests in UMD, Tumble, massive use of wands and Healing song and does not maximize persuade or the bluff skill.
Bear in mind, Almadyr, that DMs (from what I've seen) set up situations only; It's up to the players to solve them in the way they see fit. In general terms, most PCs just opt for the most direct and combat intensive solution.
Granted, a fair few don't leave you much choice; But all the time I've been here, I can count on one hand the number of times the party even considered a non-violent solution to a situation.
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Bear in mind, Almadyr, that DMs (from what I've seen) set up situations only; It's up to the players to solve them in the way they see fit. In general terms, most PCs just opt for the most direct and combat intensive solution.
Granted, a fair few don't leave you much choice; But all the time I've been here, I can count on one hand the number of times the party even considered a non-violent solution to a situation.
Yes, usually there are chats before or after the "violent end of the situation".
In those chat (the few I've seen - and again I am sure there will be many players who have been involved in more DM situation than I do), standoff, exchange of words, call them whatever you prefer, I have very rarely seen the request of a roll. Obviously this is my experience only.Now the thread can go back on topic!
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Diplomatic ranks are out there, so you can play your stats. And sometimes a Bluff check can literally mean the diffrence between life and death.
Pure classes, especially due to their special loot, are just as powerful as multiclasses. As a proof - with one of my first characters, Matreus, I reached level 8 as a pure class fighter…then, on said level, took a wizard level due to being a Stark Wyvern, and it was the moment that I started dying like a fly. Despite the fact that I was able to use wands, etc. etc. And pure - class barbarian or fighter are pretty deadly in a duel.
I don't belive there is any special "glory" in playing either a multiclassed character, or a pure classed character. Play what's RP - viable for the character.
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Single classed characters are stronger in the area they are good at.
Multiclassed characters are able to do lots of things negating the need for other classes as they can fill in as wizards trapspringers,healers,warriors.
They are not as good at each job as a singled classed character is but when a character can do three jobs at once they tend to be the only ones doing anything the rest just follow on being bored.I was playing a clerc healer/spell slingerbut after questing with a couple of characters with a few bard levels it became clear they were much better healers than she ever could be and they were the frontline!
Another example.
Doing a certain quest in the sewers there were some traps now my single classed level 7 rogue was not really needed as the fullplate wearing fighter/rogue 4/3 was able to disarm all the traps and spot them. -
@Amy:
Single classed characters are stronger in the area they are good at.
Multiclassed characters are able to do lots of things negating the need for other classes as they can fill in as wizards trapspringers,healers,warriors.
They are not as good at each job as a singled classed character is but when a character can do three jobs at once they tend to be the only ones doing anything the rest just follow on being bored.I was playing a clerc healer/spell slingerbut after questing with a couple of characters with a few bard levels it became clear they were much better healers than she ever could be and they were the frontline!
Another example.
Doing a certain quest in the sewers there were some traps now my single classed level 7 rogue was not really needed as the fullplate wearing fighter/rogue 4/3 was able to disarm all the traps and spot them.These things have always been issues on CoA. There was a time when they were adressed, and because of that characters who were not powerbuilds couldn't survive. During this time, the server average level also dropped to about 5-6, with a few "powerbuilds" toping the 11-12 range. Just as one or two dms have said throughout this thread that they find these builds boring, you too can take your healing cleric in robes and say "hmm, not going to go on any more quests with these guys" if they are truly adding nothing to what you find fun about the game.
As a side note, those of us with gimped builds tend to quest a lot less then others, but thats because we are busy with what the server is really about. You don't have to be a world class roleplayer to excel on this server (although like anything else in life, the more you put effort into improving the better you get), there's certainly people who have way better emotes and more realistic characters that don't get half the things I do done. You just have to make the concious effort to say "today, I'm going to find out what this rift nonsense is all about, and I'm going to take a group with me" Instead of saying "hmm, let me make a sending for the orc quest."
It really is that easy.
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As a side note, those of us with gimped builds tend to quest a lot less then others, but thats because we are busy with what the server is really about. You don't have to be a world class roleplayer to excel on this server (although like anything else in life, the more you put effort into improving the better you get), there's certainly people who have way better emotes and more realistic characters that don't get half the things I do done. You just have to make the concious effort to say "today, I'm going to find out what this rift nonsense is all about, and I'm going to take a group with me" Instead of saying "hmm, let me make a sending for the orc quest."
It really is that easy.
You seem like you have a really solid head on your shoulders, LaF, and your words of wisdom ring true, in an optimum situation. Here is what i experienced in game, that contradicts that.
A bunch of us were fighting orcs at the east gate.. perhaps.. 10ish or so, most of us being 3-6th, with 2 or 3 highers. After atleast a half hour of arguing what to do, if we should even go out, with many leaving, rather than go outside.. The moment we walked out to face the orcish horde at the outside gate, we were hit with 4 Elite Orc mages tossing 36ish point fireballs simultaniously. 7ish or so of us died instantly. We walked outside the gate, to face the orcs besieging the city gates, and didnt even get a chance to roll initiative.
6ish of us were clearing a cave we found, 5 of us being 3-5th, and one 9th, filled with orcs. Round a corner, and low and behold, a summoning circle that is spitting out creatures that need +1 or better weapons, topped with a full fledged Balor after that ( Only guessing, but it musta needed +2 weapons since my +1 wasnt cutting it.) Many died that series of fights.
A month ago or so, we had a grand engagement with Orcs out in the east. Lining the hills above the battlefield were elite archers, hitting for 15-20 per hit. I watched several lower level folks get dropped for just walking to near the front lines. The bravest man there, Wallace, was pretty much left out front on his own, and fell dead after holding valiantly a few rounds. I tried reaching him to heal him, as i had many times before, and was filled full of arrows the moment i got close.
We were defending Eveningstar during the attack on the Black, with around 7-10 folks, most in the 4-7 range, with a few higher , myself included, a 9th Wiz. Problem was, we only had 2 liners, and they both fell the first or second wave of 5 + waves.. each with nearly a dozen lizardmen, with spell casters, and many elites, etc, mixed with trolls and greater trolls. The only reason we held on at all, we were reduced to kiting , using buildings to block Lines of sight , even some luring, and the expendature of at the least ten thousand gold in wands and items. Point being.. your typical adventurers that you want to see in game would have died 1st wave to that mess, and more than likely, we would have too, if it wasnt for some questionable use of mechanics in a heavy lag environment.
Just a few examples off the top of my head. Now i love difficult things, its what makes adventurers what they are. But examples like this, have fostered what i saw as a very non adventurer like mindset in a ton of people on the server. Folks that take no risks, do nothing dangerous, because the real threat of sitting in the Fugue for an hour while everyone else is playing is real. ( been there. )
The threat of death is thrilling and exciting, its what makes things special and worth while. The threat of being bored out of your skull.. or missing that grand fight, because first round, you dropped to something out of your control.. is its antithesis. It breeds cowardice like a festering disease. It makes perfectly healthy characters trail well behind that push into orc lines, looting all the dead bodies instead of fighting.
I hear alot of folks keep saying " I get things done, its the mark of success", and thats started to bug me. The mark of a successful character is not, and cannot be, dictated by anyone to you. Its what YOU want to do. Want to become a melee polymorphing mage known for your odd forms? great. Wanna be a fighter with dual wielding whips, right up there with the other fighters, showing your stuff with panache? great. The point on this slight derailment is, that having fun can have no bearing on effecting the game world's events, yet be a rewarding and enriching character in the world, for you, and anyone you come in contact with. No other player or DM tells you what is fun for you, the player.
Sadly, Its the main reason i stopped playing on this server.
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At the end of the day, it's only loot and levels, which aren't important at all in the big picture. Obviously you're in the wrong mindset for these sorts of DM events; they put a lot of thought into the spawns from my experience, and are usually very forgiving on players who are mindlessly slaughtered. The only players who really mindlessly slaughter other players are griefers, which obviously isn't the case here. I've found such times to provide a great opportunity for a character's introspection and development, even if it's characterised by fourteen journeys to the fugue plane!
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[quote="Argenta
I hear alot of folks keep saying " I get things done, its the mark of success", and thats started to bug me. The mark of a successful character is not, and cannot be, dictated by anyone to you. Its what YOU want to do. Want to become a melee polymorphing mage known for your odd forms? great. Wanna be a fighter with dual wielding whips, right up there with the other fighters, showing your stuff with panache? great. The point on this slight derailment is, that having fun can have no bearing on effecting the game world's events, yet be a rewarding and enriching character in the world, for you, and anyone you come in contact with. No other player or DM tells you what is fun for you, the player.Sadly, Its the main reason i stopped playing on this server.
What you said is absolutely true, and I am sorry if I sounded like accomplishing things ig was the only way to have fun on the server. There was once a time when I liked scripted quests more then I do now (and believe me, I still do plenty, just not as often and I try to mix it up so they don't get stale), and I probably would have been standing right behind you saying "right on, dude." However, after switching to a more plot orientated play style, I will never go back, the increase in fun is too much to even meter. When say 100 people play a server, and only 50 of them truly experience everything it has to offer, I get the urge to try and share by giving a window how I approach things. If you are happy playing a standard adventurer who cares nothing about the server politics/plots, by all means, do what makes YOU happy. It has been said over and over, there is no defined way to play the server outside of the obvious curtesy rules, and while I am often outspoken that does not make my way of playing any more right then yours, and I'm sorry that you feel that I think it does. How about a compramise; I will make an effort not to be as aggresive as what I see as the way to get the most out of the server, if you try not to take it as me imposing my views on you and instead just rambling about how I like to play when I do open my mouth. Deal?