What Should Clerics Be Doing?
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@Love:
Clerics in general, myself included, tend to be pretty black and white on their interpretation of the god's dogma. We should test the limits more often and try new things, see what happens.
Another tip for clerics is not to forget about the character behind the class. Like someone said clerics are often mini-me's of their patron deity (again myself included). But try to remember that your character is just a human and has flaws as well.
Reading over the posts in this thread this is the one that sticks out to me as the most interesting and one I'd like to see more people doing more.
Try not to be JoeHelmite Cleric #1, try to be something individual!
Try not to max out your WIS and STR so you can buff up and pwn. Why not be a massively fat, bookish priest of Waukeen who pours over accounts and stuff spending his hard earned coin on loads of lavish food. Drop that CON down to say 9 or 8 due to him being really over-weight and give him high INT instead of the top WIS you can to get the pwnage spellzzz.
etc etc
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This may be slightly off topic…
But what i'd like to see more of from clerics is player run festivals, perhaps with some help from the DM's to setup stalls for 1 or 2 server resets, corresponding with our own calendar... if thats possible...
But mainly seeing clerics take more pride in their faith by venerating certain days of the year more openly or being a bit more proactive with acting out their dogmas, rather than partying with a Kelemvorite who open graves to "check whether theyre really dead" and yelling "For Tempus!" while running into battle (which btw doesnt really fit Tempus' dogma anyway)...
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This may be slightly off topic…
But what i'd like to see more of from clerics is player run festivals, perhaps with some help from the DM's to setup stalls for 1 or 2 server resets, corresponding with our own calendar... if thats possible...
Believe me, I have tried.
Doesn't work. -
This may be slightly off topic…
But what i'd like to see more of from clerics is player run festivals, perhaps with some help from the DM's to setup stalls for 1 or 2 server resets, corresponding with our own calendar... if thats possible...
Believe me, I have tried.
Doesn't work.Malarkey. You did it wrong. I've done this and had it work as a player on every type of server I've ever played.
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Just to update the ideas that have come out of this discussion that have been, to me, extremely on point.
Master Nystagmus Wrote:
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Spread dogmatic knowledge.
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Increase faith & belief that their particular god has real power.
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Increase in personal faith by living the dogma.
These are the general things a cleric should be doing.
I'd break these down to specific ways to consider how any specific cleric can do these things through their dogma by perhaps considering these points:
First and Foremost, really know your deity's dogma if you expect to roleplay a good cleric. Then consider how you can do the following within the dictates of that deity's dogma. This should by no means be exhaustive, its just a list I've come up with from the conversation thus far–so I'm sure we can add more ideas!
- Spread dogmatic knowledge.
Consider writing your character's interpretation of his faith, or his response to another character's interpretation of the faith. Consider the doctrinal debates and discussions of real world religions. How does a LE Helmite justify his view of Helm compared to a LG one?
Consider ways to make sermons more than standing and preaching. What can your character do to make "interactive sermons" as B-rock suggested? Malarites would do hunts, Helmites vigils or patrols, priests of Tymora may lead people into dangerous locations like the EW Cemetery, Cormyrian Mountain Bear Hunting, or exploring the Underdark all the while telling stories about famous adventurers.
- Increase faith & belief that their particular god has real power.
Several people raised the fact people don't view a cleric's power as anything more than "buff bot", so don't encourage that. Ask people to pray to your god before you buff them on a quest, don't heal someone who is laying dying if they've insulted your god or refused to pray before the quest (assuming it won't violate your god's dogma).
Ensure people know who your deity is. At least mention them during quests or discussions.
Consider what big projects your god would want you to work on, and work toward them. Oghman priests should seek to write books on history and lore, priests of Mystra should monitor magical artifacts of great power and their locations and bearers, priests of Velsharoon should seek the path to becoming a lich.
Keep in mind the difficulty of portraying some gods in CoA. DMs aren't likely to want to build refugee camps, hospitals, orphanages (many goodly gods may want this-we want to focus on playing adventurers), we aren't looking to pay attention to weather patterns and how they affect harvests and crops, there aren't going to be many tsunamis or deep undersea explorations.
Seek out lay worshipers and do ensure they get funerals when they die or that you demonstrate some care, concern, or at least tyrannical interest in their lives. Banites may even seek to regiment the faithful, enforcing dress codes, personal relationships, and celebrating every death as one more soldier in Bane's army.
- Increase in personal faith by living the dogma.
Don't pick spells based on what seems mechanically best, but rather consider spells that fit the flavor of your deity as drklameth suggested. Priests of Lathander should have lots of light spells, priests of Shar should consider Darkness over Bull's Strength once in awhile. Domain spells are something clerics should often have prepared as part of living the dogma of the deity.
Consider the role an adventuring priest of your faith should fulfill. Tempus is likely to have "battle priests", Lurue and Eldath will have "healers", and Tyr is more likely to have priests who present sermons and resolve disputes, Tymora's priests will be risk takers and gamblers. That shouldn't link every priest to specific hard-coded roles---but a "battle priest of Eldath" is ridiculous and ignores the entire dogma of his deity. Likewise, a priest of Garagos who isn't the first to rush into combat isn't fulfilling his deity's dogma. Every priest should be seeking to mimic their deity's dogma to the best of their ability every day, while still obviously suffering from mortal flaws.
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It would be useful to have this summation put into the "Players Resource Forum" as a starting point for creating and playing a cleric.
Some players, with less imagniation or RP experience, would really value reading through this. Others of more experience, are likely to pick out one or two things and then create something unique, yet still fitting the environment and their deity.
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This discussion has given me alot of ideas and direction for my cleric! Thanks alot!
So, the question is…how approachable are the DMs if I would like to setup an event or "interactive" sermon sometime? For example, my Kossuthan would like to organize a taint burning or a firewalking ceremony to teach renewal and faith. I'd need a bit of help I think. Kossuthans are about the fire and the bigger the better!
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If you want help setting up an event, grab a DM in game. That's generally the easiest way.
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what are the cannon prefered spells of each diety. Some are easier to figure out than others. I imagine any spells you get off your domains would be preferred though.
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@Khamal:
This discussion has given me alot of ideas and direction for my cleric! Thanks alot!
So, the question is…how approachable are the DMs if I would like to setup an event or "interactive" sermon sometime? For example, my Kossuthan would like to organize a taint burning or a firewalking ceremony to teach renewal and faith. I'd need a bit of help I think. Kossuthans are about the fire and the bigger the better!
Dont forget to think outside the box. It is always nice to have a temple/shrine/DM aid to run something but DMs have lifes too and in many instances it works easily without a DM as well.
For example, fire walking ceremony - well, set up some campfires. Use torches. Let the others roll CON checks. Or think of a place where you have fire around, e.g. the Helmlands with pools of lava. Dangerous, yep … but fun too. And those pools even damage those that walk through. Then apply Kossuths might and protect them against the elements ... the possibilities are endless.
Consider writing your character's interpretation of his faith, or his response to another character's interpretation of the faith. Consider the doctrinal debates and discussions of real world religions. How does a LE Helmite justify his view of Helm compared to a LG one?
That is also a very interesting thing to do. Involve others, interview other players that are not of your faith and get their impression, e.g. other priests or paladins. When I played my Helmite, we started such a project and at the end we had like .. pages full of interpretations and perspectives. How Helm sees his various enemies of faith and why we believed they were enemies. How they see Helmites and why. We made a group effort out of it, divided it into sections and each Helmite was tasked with completing a certain part. Didn't work out perfectly and unfortunately we never really published it .. but it was a hell of a fun to pull together.
Don't pick spells based on what seems mechanically best, but rather consider spells that fit the flavor of your deity as drklameth suggested. Priests of Lathander should have lots of light spells, priests of Shar should consider Darkness over Bull's Strength once in awhile. Domain spells are something clerics should often have prepared as part of living the dogma of the deity.
For me that also goes to summons. Take the summons theme that would best fit your deity and not the most pwnage ones. E.g. I always took the golem summoning theme for my Helmite since I believe a golem is the absolute impersonation of duty and guardianship. They are certainly not the most powerful ones but from my perspective, they did fit perfectly.
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For me that also goes to summons. Take the summons theme that would best fit your deity and not the most pwnage ones. E.g. I always took the golem summoning theme for my Helmite since I believe a golem is the absolute impersonation of duty and guardianship. They are certainly not the most powerful ones but from my perspective, they did fit perfectly.
I would think that whatever theme you have would be the one that the diety wants you to have. At least thats how it should work.
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@Lord:
For me that also goes to summons. Take the summons theme that would best fit your deity and not the most pwnage ones. E.g. I always took the golem summoning theme for my Helmite since I believe a golem is the absolute impersonation of duty and guardianship. They are certainly not the most powerful ones but from my perspective, they did fit perfectly.
I would think that whatever theme you have would be the one that the diety wants you to have. At least thats how it should work.
Too much effort. Some deities have a theme set, but most don't because of the work involved.
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@Lord:
For me that also goes to summons. Take the summons theme that would best fit your deity and not the most pwnage ones. E.g. I always took the golem summoning theme for my Helmite since I believe a golem is the absolute impersonation of duty and guardianship. They are certainly not the most powerful ones but from my perspective, they did fit perfectly.
I would think that whatever theme you have would be the one that the diety wants you to have. At least thats how it should work.
Too much effort. Some deities have a theme set, but most don't because of the work involved.
Well, at least as close as possible. E.g. a Helmite not using the Slaad theme for pwnage or a gnome not using elven spirits .. that sort. Putting a theme in for every single god .. heh, a nightmare!
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@coa_deloril:
The only cleric I feel I played really well was Cold Aerthur, a follower of Shaundakul. I mean, I really tried with this guy, making sending for explorers and the like to meet me outside XXX gate, and we could wander around, and see what we could see. I tried every different wording of this you could imagine, and the only time I got people, was when I threw in ((lvl 1-" at the end of my sending, and people thought we were all going on some new quest for lowbies. When I explained there was no "quest giver" That I meant anyone was welcome, they all packed up and left. Rather ironically, it was that same day that I stumbled upon a DM quest, and had the best explorative experience ever with my char.
Maybe Shaundakuls just harder to represent, maybe people dont like getting out of the city, or maybe it was just me stuffing up, but it seems that no matter what I tried to get peple involved, unless it included the words ((lvl X-X)) nobody gave a rats ass, which was mildly frustrating, I'll admit.
My two cents
I know this is old (first page), but i was just reading it, and im sure others and myself have very similar sentiments when people call for quests which others have no or little OOC knowledge about.
What is it? To me it's truly OOC shenanigans, but who am i to force someone to play or behave a certain way…
On your other point, i love being outside of the city, it has nicer music (lol), the green is much nicer on the eyes, and a generally more comfortable aura (to me), and people often act as if they really are in danger, rather than "abusing" (may i say) the OOC knowledge that the quests they go on every day are generally safe and will be of a high safety level.
Off topic, i know heh, but i wanted to say something about this post which intrigued me.
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I love playing up my domain, though I only really get to make RP use of one. Trickery is a good one and right up there. I only wish NWN had put in the Darkness domain. I find little RP flavor in the Evil domain, or any Alignment domain for that matter.
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Also, research your deity's allies and enemies.
I hate having clerics of X not know that I should be either kissing or kicking their ass.
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Anyone who is reading and posting in this but has not been to the player resource forum and all the wonderful advice there they have about clerics. Get there now. Seriously. The stuff Div wrote is amazing and very very helpful to anyone that is unsure exactly what a cleric is and what they should be doing.
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Well may as well add some late comments:
I think spell failure for the cleric should be a last resort and not first, a cleric should recieve warnings from superiors in the church if they are not performing as they should be and given time to mend their ways. If that fails to inspire them then further penances should be made either by terms of time/money/items. Then when all else fails the god can abandon their follower.
Clerics arent all preachers so shouldnt be forced into stuffing their god down everyones throat, they should be encouraged to do so. Currently every single player creates with a patron deity, be them warrior or mage. Even if their char doesnt believe in that god or any. There should be more encouragement to bend people to follow a faith. Give the clerics more ability to convert people into the folds of their faith. Currently it requires a DM application and about 8 weeks of devotion. Having people of none paladin/cleric classes create without a patron, then they have to do some of the work in finding a suitable clergy to perform a initiation into a faith. Means the clergy for less common deities stand a chance of converting a few people.
Seems also that clerics are unable to participate in many DM run events and factions. Mostly they are blacklisted by the dm for following a certain faith or whatever as it will cause conflict during the event/faction. So what? Isnt that what you want, more development of characters and more intriege? What if a cleric of bane joined the militia would it really be so bad? Is that any worse than having someone whos racist or power hungry?
More religious based items. Currently there are vestiments to each faith available, but only in a few shrines and temples are actual religious items found. Instead of adding new shop items that are none descript, make them religion based. Amulet of icy armor (fivestar) could have been Amulet of Auril.
Lastly, should not the same philosophy also be applied to other class, like mages and monks or even fighters. Enourage fighters to train others and spend time training their own skills, and penalise ones that dont.
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Currently it requires a DM application and about 8 weeks of devotion.
It does?
What if a cleric of bane joined the militia would it really be so bad? Is that any worse than having someone whos racist or power hungry?
Would the Militia bosses WANT a cleric of Bane in their ranks? It needs to make sense IC too.
More religious based items. Currently there are vestiments to each faith available, but only in a few shrines and temples are actual religious items found. Instead of adding new shop items that are none descript, make them religion based. Amulet of icy armor (fivestar) could have been Amulet of Auril.
Why not try and make this happen IC and IG?
Lastly, should not the same philosophy also be applied to other class, like mages and monks or even fighters. Enourage fighters to train others and spend time training their own skills, and penalise ones that dont.
We do this, in the form of customised loot, RP tokens and XP rewards.
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More religious based items. Currently there are vestiments to each faith available, but only in a few shrines and temples are actual religious items found. Instead of adding new shop items that are none descript, make them religion based. Amulet of icy armor (fivestar) could have been Amulet of Auril.
While I like this idea, please be careful. I was checking some of the merchants selling items and 90% of them were unsuitable for a wizard and mainly aiming at warriors and priests. Finding anything useful for sale for a wizard, besides tons of armors, shields, weapons .. class only, alignment only, race only, … is already difficult enough and somewhat dampens player economy.
I remember finding a nice scythe once and carrying it around for weeks without a chance to sell it to anyone because it was class and weapon skill specific. Not even merchants were willing to buy it cheapest. Right now I carry another item on my current character that is race and weapon skill specific. Finding someone who could use it and is willing to pay for it .. difficult. Luckily it is light enough, so I wont have to trash it like the scythe i once carried on another character.