What Should Clerics Be Doing?
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Words cannot express the happiness this topic brings to me, knowing that this conversation is taking place amongst the DMs and now the player base.
Clerics rank among my favorite classes in PnP. The possibilities are endless, as with all classes certainly, but the added touch of a divine connection creates something very special. Clerics do not "learn" spells the way wizards or force them into existance with personality, willpower, and inherant ability. The cleric is granted this power after completing his/her devotions and prayers. The power that is infused into the cleric would be one of the most potent feelings, good or bad, that cleric will experience. They are being touched by their god(dess) or an agent of the god(dess).
The prayers are more then a simple "hey, what's up? I need teh power!" The prayers are small rituals, taught from the earliest days as a novice and grow in complexity as the cleric becomes more experienced, more trusted, and therefore granted more Divine power.
The dogma of the diety is written in absolutes and handed down at some point from the deity. That dogma forms the basic, incontrovertable will of the deity. A clerics first responsibilty is to the Deity. All other loyalties come second. Even loyalty and obediance to the official church is secondary and loyalty to friends, kings, mercenary captains, and the like are even further down the line. A cleric's greatest challenge is balancing the mortal world that he/she exists in and the Divine that she aspires to and represents.
Only by trying to understand and represent the above points can a cleric become something more then a heavy armor, self buffing second line fighter that has healing spells.
What do you like to see?
- There are always exceptions such as some deities promoting secrecy, misdirection, or even lying but in general, it should be readily apparent when a character is a cleric within a few minutes of interacting with them.
- The dogma of the cleric represented in actions, and choices, not just talking about it.
- Taking the black and white dogma of the deity and applying to the grey situations of the world the cleric exists in
- Conflict between faiths that are supposed to loath each other. Tormites and Banites really should have not alot to say to each other and certainly not be overly friendly or coming to the defence of each other. They are hated rivals bent on wiping the the other church from the face of Toril. I believe religion has caused more war and death through the ages then any other force
- Clerics being more then the choice of domains
- Divine spell failure handed out like candy at halloween for clerics not following the dogma or other silliness.
- The choice of domains should influence the character's conduct much like specialization for a wizard. If a cleric takes healing, they should be more focused on healing then a cleric who choses evil or magic or war.
What has been fun in the past? - PC factions that actually have an agenda more then getting together because they share the same faith.
- Reigns of terror inspired by faith groups marching around or the reverse, a reigh of benevolance inspired by a faith based group
- Active promotion of the deity by events. Balls, Tournements, Contests, Hunts, etc
What doesn't seem to work?
- Regular, lengthy sermons.
- PC groups assemble only because of similar faith
- Clerics that deviate from the role forced onto them. All players should be free to express the character concept differently as long as they adhere to the dogma.
What would you expect from a general cleric character, at the least?- Invoking the deity's name when casting spells
- Knowing the deity's history and dogma
- Not being friends or questing buddies with enemies of the church
- Not doing things that are forbidden by the church.
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Editing in this warning before I get flamed. There is not one right way to play a cleric. There are however many wrong ways to play one, such as playing a cleric as a fighter/wizard.
What do you like to see?
I like to see clerics who are clearly clerics, not, fighters with spells. If i've spent a total of 3 hours, even on multiple occasions with a cleric, I want to know who their god is without having to ask. Frequently, this never happens.
What has been fun in the past?
I enjoyed the "less combative" side of playing a cleric. I found it fun, other players seemed to like it also. Things like giving spiritual guidance, advice, or chastising them etc. There is a lot of fun to be had with a cleric which has nothing to do with combat, plot or intrigues. This is NOT to say that a cleric cannot get involved in combat, plot and intrigues, a cleric should be involved there too, but there is a lot of fun for everyone involved in the non combative side. There is a lot of overlap between private councelling and plot/intrigues, which are what people need advice about 90% of the time.
I really enjoyed those times where people came to Bezzet to confess misdeeds or asking for advice. There is a big difference between what are usually boring sermons, and 1 on 1 time. It was said above that often, a cleric should be the spiritual support to a "real hero", I've always thought this the case. If a cleric is not a hero, they should be seeking out members of the faithful and helping them become heroes.
What doesn't seem to work?
To be honest, I do not think the current system for clerics works. We have too many clerics who make it to high levels and do a bad job. I am not going to propose something as drastic as making clerics app only. What I might recommend is that before a cleric gets level 5 spells, they submit a "simple" app. They list the accomplishments they have made in doing their god's work. The hurdle would not be high, but I think it might be good to add it. This may be a little cynical but I think the current system is that a cleric will remain a cleric unless they really mess up, but I think that you should have to "earn it" to cast lvl 5 spells. Some players play their clerics as fighter/wizards and make it to high levels without ever encountering a moral problem, so they never fall when they should not really be casting at all.
What would you expect from a general cleric character, at the least?
I expect clerics to stand out. I expect a cleric of Tempus to be kicking ass, taking names and yelling loudly about the glory of Tempus. I expect clerics of Bane to organize cabals and plot for Bane's power. I expect clerics of Oghma to be seen as knowledgable scholars and involve other players on their quest for knowledge. I expect clerics of Tyr, Torm and Lathander to be pro-active in the defense of the innocent and classic good virtues. I expect clerics of Ilmater to either be living a life of poverty and aiding the sick, or kicking ass in Ilmaters name. I expect elven, dwarven and halfling clerics to actually have elven, dwarven or halfling gods and to try to be cultural leaders for their respective races, to try to pull them together in a city where they are the minority.
I expect the player of a cleric to ask the following question, EACH AND EVERY time they cast a spell. "Yey, I am a punny mortal, scum who has devoted my life to the Great and Mighty Steven, Lord of Carseats. I call upon the power of the heavens, to invoke a miracle into the mortal world! How would this miracle advance Mighty Steven's work?" A large portion of the time the answer may be that it is helping to raise funds, or protecting the clerics, or improving the gods image by gaining glory for him, but I expect the cleric to at least consider it.
I expect a cleric to "act up" and be assertive on issues which their god really cares about. Clerics of Deneir cannot just walk away while someone is burning books, clerics of Helm who pledged themselves should defend their charges, no matter what.
I expect clerics to be rude, hateful and spiteful to the direct enemies of their gods and not "pussy out" because they do not want to ruffle feathers to cause conflict.
I expect clerics to grow a set of balls and stand up for their gods if others slander them. If they are going to die terribly they might get off letting it go once, but they should not be making a habit of it and if they let it go, they should be making up for it in another way.
I think there are a lot of times where clerics throw their gods dogma to the side because they do not want to ruffle feathers or be drawn into conflict, most of the time there is not a DM around so they "get away with it". If a cleric somehow has made it to level 9 and does not have enemies, they are doing something wrong. The rare exception might be those clerics who are pacifists, or devoted to ideas which do not lend themselves to conflict, like knowledge, so an Ilmateri, or Sharindlar(Belir!), or Oghman may be an exception, but they should then have a reputation as being an important servant of their god.
I expect a a lot from clerics and I would like to see the "bar" raised on the conduct expected from them, I am aware of the irony of this but I still believe the bar needs to be higher, even after having played a cleric who fell! I think the power of a cleric is a non-issue, providing they are held to a suitably high standard.
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I don't expect a cleric to be any more spectacular than any other class. In fact, I prefer the opposite. As has been said before, clerics that retain their own personality, quirks, flaws and motives are such compelling characters. The most boring character arch-type is the cleric that follows his dogma perfectly and has basically become a mini-me for their god.
A cleric who follows their god's dogma as they interpret it, not necessarily perfectly, and suffers from flaws is great stuff. My best examples are Rolliander Deephollow and Bezzet Kelhert (recently).
Watch Rolliander Deephollow, if you want to know how to properly play a cleric (that even includes mechanically, [wow, clerics that cast healing spells?]). He follows his god's dogma, is proactive and works to practice it the best he can, but, most importantly, has his own distinct and unique personality. Despite all of that, he still pulls off a halfling, as a halfling "should" be played.
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A lot of good points so far. Here's my list.
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Cleric cap at 4 (class, not spell). A lot of the "fighter with spells" types need level 3+ spells before they get into war machine mode.
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Level 10+ should be doing something instead of sitting in the market or other place. I'm sorry to say there's been more than a handful of these over the years I've played.
Examples of of things they can do:
- Campaign to become a High Priest.
- Found a temple.
- Found/maintain a paladin order (If paladin or cleric of an LG god)
- Demonstrate Divine Champion-level of dedication and loyalty to the god.
- Uniting the faithful.
- Becoming official clergy.
These're just off the top of my head.
- Nerf the cleric combat buff spells (Divine Favor/Power, Prayer, etc). I'm not exactly sure many of you understand how powerful these are, and how integral they are to a lot of the melee cleric types. If you want clerics acting more like clerics instead of super fighter, take away what makes them super fighters.
What do you like to see?
Clerics acting like clerics. Ones that don't act cliche.
What has been fun in the past?
For me, sermons early on. Destroying magical items, faith faction meetings.
What doesn't seem to work?
Sermons after a while. If there's no DM-granted reward in it, people often won't come. (This is true of a lot of player events.)
Pretty much anything that doesn't promise DM XP or loot. Of course, it could just be cynicism speaking, so take it with a grain of salt.
What would you expect from a general cleric character, at the least?
Non-buffbot/super fighter behavior. A cleric is more than a person with d8 HP and spells, they're a mighty servant of a god.
Official clergies should be viewed as emissaries of the Church and deity themselves.
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Cleric cap at 4 (character, not spell). A lot of the "fighter with spells" types need level 3+ spells before they get into war machine mode.
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Level 10+ should be doing something instead of sitting in the market or other place. I'm sorry to say there's been more than a handful of these over the year.
This is good. The only thing I'd change here is that instead of lvl 10+ it should be lvl 7+.
I know it would probably take far far to much time, but I think the DM's should take 10 minutes every so often to jump to a cleric and see how they are acting, take a few notes, then do again another day. If after three check ups they haven't seen anything satisfactory, - spell failure 100%
If the players then get annoyed about this, they should be able to ask for an example or two of possible methods of how to re-gain their powers. But these should be vague, so the player still has to come up with something interesting, and by themselves.
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Many sermons I've attended were breathtakingly boring. :( Needs more action imo.
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I think everyone is expecting too much from the class. A cleric doesn't have to be a crusader or a preacher. Sure you can list a bunch of epic things a cleric can do like founding a temple, converting people, even campaigning againt a rival church, but you'd just put a lot of strain on the playerbase if you demand it from them as a bare minimum- besides, any religious character regardless of class should be after those goals. Just because you're a cleric doesn't mean you're a recognized representative of the church or hold any sway over the community. In the grand scheme of things deities are really mysterious, they'll give whoever they want power to fit their need. In fact, a 'lowly' fighter could champion a church just as well as a cleric could.
Another thing is that out of reading the given page about a deity, 70% of that info is about the deity itself which the priest wouldn't know about. What you're left with is a few details and the general dogma…I've seen quite a few player written sermons and I know exactly what they did: They looked at the dogma and expanded the small paragraph as much as they could. All that leaves is a repetition of the same message, and quite frankly a lot of players have become quite crafty with this :P
Bottom line is, you open a bible or any other religious text and you have a mountain of things to talk about (names, places, battles, ceremonies, artifacts, poems, tales). You play a cleric in D&D and you have enough information to cover a postage stamp. So what are you left with? A fighter with spells who occasionally blurts out a line which is vaguely relevant to the dogma.
Also, remember, for every Baron Darmos out there, there are dozens of little priests shelving books , feeding the poor, healing the wounded in battle, or conducting small ceremonies for the dead (variety of specialty priests from different deities)- you'll never hear about them in any epic tale, yet they retain their powers.
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Gnomish Inventor makes good points, but! The thing is, these are PC clerics we are talking about, they should be enhancing the playing experience through their actions, and these actions should be much more interesting than shuffling books around. Instead of shuffling the books, the players should be writing the books, through practical research, taking parties out of dangerous missions to find out about things and learn about the teachings of thier deity.
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Many sermons I've attended were breathtakingly boring. :( Needs more action imo.
Fully agreed.
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I also believe that too many people try and act like Priests in RL, instead of clerics in the Forgotten Realms.
A cleric of Shaundakul shouldnt preach in a shrine. He should be out on the roads, preaching to -travellers- while they -travel-.
A cleric of Torm should be holding sermons dedicated to crusading evil, not in a shrine.
In short, a sermon isnt a sermon. It should reflect the god in more ways than topic.
I am also sick and tired of clerics in FP, Towershields and with Bastardswords. I am tired of seeing battleclerics, but never any preachers. A cleric of Tymora should be dressed in an atire that would aid them in adventuring, and to be honest, Fullplates shouldnt be easy to dungeon crawl with.
Clerics should use, imo, their deities favored weapon, or a simple weapon. Their garments, adventuring equipment etc should reflect that they are priests of -said- god.
Id love to see much more multiclasses. Sharran? Make a sorc/cleric. Mask, or Tymora? Throw in some rogue levels. Nature gods? Ranger, druid.
In short, i would love less nwn cliches, and more forgotten realms cliches. If in a straight fight, a cleric of Tempus should be feared, and should be much more battle powerful than a cleric of Finder Wyvernspur or Mask.
Add to this, that id love to see clerics do much more Cleric like. I would personally love to see a small group of Clerics of goodly gods create a new paladin Order.
Id also love to see Clerics of Cyric promote asassins. Id love to see Clerics of Finder or Oghma or Milil or Liira fund bodyguards for bards.
In short, more dedication to the god.
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Alright then, what can we do as DMs to a) foster more Awesome from clerics and b) make sure clerics who aren't pulling their weight aren't just high level pwn machines.
We've discussed this as a DM team already, and the focus we'd like to promote is ''Reward not punish'', so not necessarily slapping poor clerics but rewarding the really really good ones.
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attaching spell failure in severely recalcitrant cases, though it rarely if ever promotes better rp.
often non-rpers don't understand the complexities of dogma, of needed rp, or of DM & player expectations. i've seen good results when the player base takes the initiative to request a little dogmatic teaching from 'poor' clerics. often the players just don't know, want to survive, and thus choose a powerful and flexible class.
I think pats on the back ig from the DMs, and offering tell suggestions to players can help, especially with new players. I feel that well played clerics should be given IG status in their clergy. A place of recognition and power, even over other clerics of the same faith. this promotes a public example of what we are striving for, and promotes modelling that same behavior.
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I'm not really sure that an "all carrot, no stick" method of fixing clerics in general is going to work.
There are already plenty of carrots with playing a Cleric well or poorly. Lets see, combat ability, full plate armor, and being able to just about kick the snot out of any other class in the game due to low magic level. Those sort of stand out up front.
All you can really give is status and in a world where mechanical strength can force your will upon other players (though not NPCs), I don't think most clerics will care.
Players that bother to work at playing a cleric as more than a spell-casting fighter will probably appreciate some recognition for doing a good job, but they will still likely feel like they're wasting their time when "Level 10 Cleric of who knows because he never mentioned it" is four levels higher than they are and when people care what they say because they can kick everyone's ass.
There are probably about 10% of clerics that are really well-played as clerics. About 10% of clerics that are really terribly played, and the other 80% just really aren't much more than fighters with spells. Maybe those numbers are 20/20/60 or something like that, but I can't say I remember a lot of interesting clerics as I think about it.
You usually find that Paladins, which are played much less often, likely due to actual restrictions to behavior which is enforced, and much less mechanical power, tend to play more appropriately within their god's dogma. If you want clerics to act like clerics, you really need to probably throw in some spell failure with some "visions" of how they should be acting or why they got spell failure.
Along with that, don't make the player guess what they did wrong. We don't play these characters 24 hours a day, but rather measured in minutes or hours a week/month. There should be some IC and OOC knowledge given with negative reinforcement that makes it clear that they're playing appropriately.
Giving some incentives to playing well won't matter if there isn't some clear risk of losing your pwndozer status if you don't toe the line. Clerics are given powers by gods for doing awesome for that god. If they aren't doing awesome for that god, they shouldn't be getting a free meal ticket.
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Sticks are still around for people who violate their dogma, and they get the stick as quickly as DMs can hit them with it. We typically only assign spell failure when the violation was obviously blatant–and to ensure that the entire DM team will typically be told of the violation and we ensure they all agree before spell failure is given out. This means we won't be able to do it instantly in every case--especially cases we find out about later.
However, since the violation should be obvious to anyone with common sense--this shouldn't typically raise problems. If you're a priest of Sharess and you're out killing cats for fun--duh.
However, sticks never make people learn. Typically, they just get sullen because they got hit with a stick and whine about it for months and months--sometimes even after the bruise of spell failure has changed. So we prefer to focus on rewarding the players who roleplay clerics wonderfully over those who just don't get it. Hopefully, they can learn from example.
And rewards can readily include ensuring that cleric hits level 10 or 11. DMs can make that happen. If that's what has to happen, I'm happy to do it too. We've already made sure some players hit level 10 or 11 who deserved it. We made sure one well played cleric hit level 16 once.
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Going after clerics who don't play like clerics one at a time is not going to be fun for a DM and I expect would take them a lot of time. I would really place the numbers as high as oliver did, with perhaps 60% of clerics really just playing like fighter/wizards,
What if they put in something similar to an app. To advance to level 7 or 8 in a cleric, a cleric has to submit a list of their accomplishments and efforts on behalf of their god. The expectations would not be very high, but would help if it were there. I doubt DMs want to look through tons of apps, but how many level 7 or 8 clerics do we get every week, 3 or 4? It could be impliment as follows: Create a weightless item which removes 7 or 8 level 4, 5 and 6 spellslots, give it to EVERYONE on creation. Barter it to a DM after your "app" is aprooved. This way they can still cast their level 1, 2 and 3 spells. Sadly, not everyone reads the forums. Put a description on the item explaining that clerics are expected to RP in X way, and give some examples of expected conduct and that they will need to send in a lis of their accomplishments and efforts on behalf of their god.
The way I describe the item may well be a pain in the as to script, but I think I get the idea across. I'd like to think that if every cleric knew what was expected of them, they would act more like clerics. Even if that idea is not liked or is not possible, it might still help to give every cleric at creation a weightless no drop item telling them what is expected and offering some advice.
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Extra-spells for kickass clerics.
Pandemonium had this little cult a while back that he was running. One of the rewards given to the devout followers were non-drop items that enabled the possessor to use a new spell per day, even if they weren't clerics.
The really amazing clerics could be given items like this that grant them a deity related spell. The spells chosen would obviously need to reflect the deity in question and would represent ICly the deity favouring that clerics behaviour. The spells themselves could even be from above the normal spell level of the server to make them more breatthtakingly cool.
I know I'd be ICly and OOCly impressed if that level 4 cleric who was a really great example of their gods dogma was busting out a level 13 spell every now and then.
Edit: Also I'd be all for a level cap on clerics at around 7 or so. It would discourage the players who just want to be all powerful buff-bot killing machines from actually playing the class. The kind of player who is likely to RP the class more accurately, engagingly and all around more entertainingly wouldn't be put off by this.
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Extra-spells for kickass clerics.
Pandemonium had this little cult a while back that he was running. One of the rewards given to the devout followers were non-drop items that enabled the possessor to use a new spell per day, even if they weren't clerics.
The really amazing clerics could be given items like this that grant them a deity related spell. The spells chosen would obviously need to reflect the deity in question and would represent ICly the deity favouring that clerics behaviour. The spells themselves could even be from above the normal spell level of the server to make them more breatthtakingly cool.
I know I'd be ICly and OOCly impressed if that level 4 cleric who was a really great example of their gods dogma was busting out a level 13 spell every now and then.
Ka-ching. I vote for this.
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If you think clerics are already overpowered enough, why give them anything more?
However, I cannot say I have spotted much bad roleplaying on the part of clerics. I don't regularly work with many clerics (most seem to be on team good) but I haven't spotted it as a "problem".
Maybe it's because with the hundreds of gods in FR, you have a choice? Deity and alignment is really not a problem if you have so many options. There is something for everyone.
They're just overpowered, but so are druids. If they weren't, no one would bother playing the healbot.
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Everything in DnD is over-powered if you know what you're doing. I've seen bard builds that would wipe the floor with most of our high level clerics.
All we're concerned with is seeing the roleplay of clerics improve across the board, its one of the least understood classes and one with the most stringent requirements after druids and paladins–who have come to be figured out by the player base rather well.
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What would -really- be sweet, was if the dms decided that there are now, say, two or three major ruined buildings in the city, and twice as many small ones. These will be "tagged" first OOC, and then IC, for devoted players and player factions.
This means, that you turn it into a "contest" The guys who create the most awesome, will be properly rewarded for it in return.
For instance, the big former temple ruin and Fezzies old estate in East Arabel, will be put up for "grabs" by the Phoenix Legion/Darmos and Old Fezznick, to whomever seems to earn it.
You then also choose perhaps a more shady part of ground as well.This means, that if someone actually does the effort of playing a persistant Cleric for the next few months, he can actually achieve being given a temple to his god. If he is actually promoting awesome, then the dms reflect this by actually giving him commoner followers. Reward him by having these commoners come over, when he is restocking quiver bolts in the market, and hand him donations for being awesome.
And if he keeps it up, the commoners would then build him a temple in honour of his god.
In the same way, if a sneaky cleric of Shar /Velshy/ Bale does alot of awesome, give him the chance to convert a young noble whose father was killed, and is, if converted, willing to grant his family estate in Arabel to the priest.
In short, if you wanna use carrots, then do it in such a way that its obvious and actually possible to one day eat said carrot. Give out official church status without an app, if someone is doing well. Give them five Banite uniforms, that they can pass out to their minions, if he is awesome enough.
In short, give him an edge, that is not only obvious, but also useful in more ways than mechanics.