[Closed]Summoning the Occult

Ruler

Mister Frosthelms Draft:

Summoning the Occult:
Summoning intelligent outsiders from any realm, aberrations, or undead spirits. Those caught leading or controlling occult minions will be arrested immediately. In extreme cases, the sentences may be considered Capital. These cases usually include city assaults facilitated by the summoning of the occult. This does not include extra-planar creatures such as infernally tainted animals, but rather applies to powerful sentient extra-planar creatures that pose a serious risk to life and property. Those witnessed to be in the non-hostile company of an intelligent being of the occult(and not busy destroying them, fleeing from them, etc) can be assumed to be under extreme suspicion of having made a Pact or criminal association, and will be investigated as such.

Quotes from others files:

Laypriest Dupont:

@V-Rage said in Morpheus's Draft:

Mostly good.

I'm against some of these though.

Namely the fact beings from higher planes such as Celestia would be included in this Summoning the Occult.

Whilst it shouldn't be done lightly there can be times Summoning celestials could be helpful such as expeditions into Deadwell to clear the undead.

Mister Frosthelm:

On summoning celestials, have you seen what happened to Eveningscar? Mortals should not have any right or responsibility to summon powerful, sentient outsiders. I would not trust that with anyone outside of the High Clergy of a church, with the approval of the crown. Someone thought releasing a celestial on the Cyricists was a good idea and it lead to pandemonium that we are still cleaning up. I would not, in good conscience, recommend anyone doing that again, even to Deadwell.

-Morpheous

My opinion, dare I say strong opinion on the matter is this.

Under no circumstances should summoning sentient outsiders be permissible or without -serious- punishment. In an effort to make for a fruitful discussion I will cast aside the recent example Belon has provided us with from historic events.

Let us consider deadwell as Laypriest Dupont suggests. Deadwell consists of mostly non sentient undeath, sure something may linger in the darkest corner of the crypts below but the undead that plague that land have obvious intentions and limitations, with no strings tied to ambition.

Outsiders do not share these qualities. To summon or create any means for sentient outsiders(yes even celestials) to conquer a land in hopes it is cured from undeath is flawed in more ways than one. We cannot assume:

That they have the means(or interest) to cure or weaken curses, such as deadwell
That they don't have extreme views on what the material plane should look like
That they share our views on what deserves life, death or judgement
That they do not have other ambitions or motives that risks realm and kingdom during their visit

"But guildmaster, I am a capable summoner able to control sentient outsiders under my command because I found a book!"

Neato-

But when has it ever stopped there? It has not, nor would it ever. Every summoner has their limitations, none in history would were able to conquer deadwell(or similar examples) with sentient outsiders unless they stretched beyond their limits thus risking the realm and kingdom as a whole.

Saying that we must summon celestials to answer deadwell is an extreme and dangerous measure that lacks creative thought to find ways that do not risk innocent lives.

Some things to note that I find most curious:

Those who have summoned celestials or permitted others to do so, were those often without a deep understanding of the Arcane(and those that did had villainous intentions). My respect to the rulers before us but they were not arcanists nor experts in the dangers of these extreme measures.
Adventurers often jump to the most extreme solution to a problem, even if it risks lives. Defending it as the "Only way" when really, it is not nor do they regularly have evidence that would support this.
Ambition should be accounted for. The same minds that would exploit these powers would not stop there, especially after initial success.
Imagine the peace the citizens would have knowing we learn from history(belon and others) instead of continuing on and acting as if the lives lost had no lesson.
Should someone find the means to summon sentient outsiders, it may be the design of one under the guise of an established faith, or any powerful entity giving false promise

Kindly,

~Guildmaster Finley Copperfield

Seter

I wholeheartedly agree with Guildmaster Copperfield on this.

Signed,

Lord Mordecai of House Cormaeril
Divine Champion of the Divine Right, Siamorphe
Head of House Chapter in the region of Arabel
Ruler of Immersea
Knight of the Realm of Arabel

V-Rage

With respect Guildmaster, You are not an expert on conjuration.

Summoning devils and demons is outlawed because they are evil beings that try and tempt people into selling their souls.

Celestials do not have this issue.

Also going back to Eveningstar, There is a vast difference between the sort of celestial an adventurer could conjure and what was bound in the Temple

I am not suggesting it should be done all the time but there needs to be exceptions for respected clergy to be able to call them in certain situations

Michael

Seter

While I do not presume to be any more expert on such matters, like the Guildmaster, I do have questions in regards to your statement Laypriest Dupont:

Who decides what celestials can be conjured and which one cannot?
Who decides that the time calls for such a being?
Do you propose that only Clergy know and will be allowed to perform a feat of conjuring forth celestials?
If as a result of summoning said celestial the same wanton destruction, that took place in Eveningstar, occurs - Would the conjurer or event their entire church be subject to punishes as listed in the law for such crimes?

Signed,

Lord Mordecai of House Cormaeril
Divine Champion of the Divine Right, Siamorphe
Head of House Chapter in the region of Arabel
Ruler of Immersea
Knight of the Realm of Arabel

lunatichigh

Will make suggestion here.

Summoning Occult beings should be unlawful for all citizens- unless sanctioned, approved, and permitted by nation's law enforcing agencies, such as the Crown, House of Ash, Church of Tymora, etc.

Documentation and proposal should include reasoning behind summoning.

Burden falls onto summoner(and allies) to perform such deed, as long as it is done safely and securely and summoner has proven history of no criminal activities. If crimes are committed, will know who to investigate.

Summoning a Demon, Celestial, or dead Spirit for express purpose of questioning should be permissible. Using these outsiders to do harm against the nation and citizenry should not.

-Gravedigger Delacrux

[OOC: With other threads mentioning paperwork, permits, and shit... I just want to make sure this doesn't get out of hand. Paperwork and stuff is fine every now and then, I just hate it when it becomes a second job to play in a faction coughlookingatyoumilitiacough IF we do have permits and whatnot, maybe treat it like app lite and have some templates for factions PCs to use ]

V-Rage

Summoning forth a being like Hezebel would likely be of the same complexity as calling morvin was, I very much doubt an adventurer could ever call such a being.

We cant possibly write down every time it may be apprioate to call such a being in the lawbook

There is this wonderful thing called best judgement.

Is it wise to call a celestial to aid with a mundane job? No. Might there be a benefit to call one for information on the Eastern Marches situation the Princess wishes resolving. Likely

Michael

@V-Rage

There are reports of celestials in the Eastern Marches that attack anyone who approaches. I have not been there myself but it is clear the extreme nature of a celestial to determine “greater good” is a threat to moral lives, safety, and security. Again, only those sanctioned by the crown should have any right to summon any occult and I would advise that be a very rare if ever occurrence. If you give the right to a church to summon them, how long before the argument is made of favoritism to good churches over evil? How long before a church of Talos demands the right to summon a being of chaos to destroy and enemy of the realm? How long before the Church of Helm wants to summon a being of order to judge the wicked in the city? What about summoning a powerful warrior spirit of Tempus? Can the church of Cyric now summon undead to do “good deeds” for the city? “Good” alignment is not a justification for being given leeway of the law and safety of the public.

This is all I will say on the topic. Justice is balanced scales and favoring one church to be above the law over another is unjust. When considering your proposals remember how your own exceptions can be used against you in the future.

-Morpheus

lunatichigh

Sentient planar beings will have own agenda. Should be rare, if ever, to be summoned to plane.

Contrary to popular belief, not all Necromancy is done with malicious or evil intent. Time, place, intent. There is merit in seeing from different perspectives, not just from own.

Gravedigger Delacrux
House of Ash

Ruler

@V-Rage said in Summoning the Occult:

With respect Guildmaster, You are not an expert on conjuration.

Summoning devils and demons is outlawed because they are evil beings that try and tempt people into selling their souls.

Celestials do not have this issue.

Also going back to Eveningstar, There is a vast difference between the sort of celestial an adventurer could conjure and what was bound in the Temple

I am not suggesting it should be done all the time but there needs to be exceptions for respected clergy to be able to call them in certain situations

Michael

Your first claim is to discredit my authority on the matter. The very reason I am summoned here is because I am -the- expert. I am a Guildmaster and as such it is my responsibility to research beyond what may be considered selfish interests in order to understand and teach others on their path leading forward. But because you brought it up-

Most people don't know this about me but I have extensively studied and applied the study of Abjuration. A school responsible for banishing outsiders from the material along with a great many other things. I'd argue as such, I am quite familiar with the risks and unfortunate histories of conjuration.

I understand you are hopeful to find any and all reason for yourself to summon celestials but you do not have my sympathy in this regard.

There is also no -line-. There is no boundary after one learns to summon celestials and whoever in power permits it. There are many "goodly" faiths that would weaponize this ability for the advancement of their faith under the guise of "greater good" or as I will return the sentiment in kind for Mister Duponts comment, "boldness"

In example: Say I am approved to summon celestials, I then am approved to stretch beyond what most people see as summoning. Think about the summoning circle underneath tilverton, except utilizing celestials for instance. There is no justice in this circumstance or for the natural progression of ambition us mortals and I'd argue even some faiths, are chained by.

The kingdom is on its knees and summoning any sentient outsider is a risk. It is also my belief that you can solve the same issues with non sentient summons. That which you summon ought not to be smarter than you are, gods have mercy.

Some more things of note

It isn't uncommon in other kingdoms to be killed on the spot for this pursuit
In what world do sentient summons answer problems non sentient can not?
Studying and practicing such summons have in the past weakened the boundary between the material plane and celestia
There are always those who will bend the law to satiate their ambition

It remains my opinion that across the board Summoning the Occult needs to be outlawed, with strict punishment upon being caught. I'd suggest execution as a possible and likely outcome in order to dissuade any of those who would attempt such with the comforts of a heavy purse.

There are other ways to save the realm without blatantly risking innocent lives.

Kindly,

~Guildmaster Finley Copperfield

Puffy

Any summoning of outsiders, aberrations, or the unliving of any kind will count as summoning the occult, which may only be performed by those granted such powers by the Crown.

The Arbiter of Arabel

Prof. Misclick

Begin drafting these articles for inclusion to the lawbook draft.

Sir Malcom

//Discussion is closed. Please start adding this to the lawbook//