Improving player numbers.
-
We aren't at the climax of the war plot. The war itself is just about to start so there's plenty of time to get involved and learn about things
-
I last played regularly two years ago, and stopped due to RL commitments ramping up rather than anything specific to the server that turned me off. I’ve been lingering the last two weeks or so contemplating returning to the game, and honestly the greatest deterrent for me is the low player base itself. I tried logging in yesterday morning, 0900 to about 1100 GMT, and not a single soul was on during that period. I appreciate, having kept up with the forums, that this might be in part owing to the Draft, and while that’s an extreme example, the low player count drastically limits the scope of concepts that are likely to enjoy any success and is a major detraction for me to recommit to Arabel.
With that said, I can’t believe I’m the only ex-player lurking on the forums and game looking for a reason to log in. Tapping into a way to incentivise those players to make the leap and play is the key to revitalising the player base I think. And more players breed more players.
Something mentioned in this thread already, and which we have relied on previously with varying degrees of success, is promoting the server. Arabel is in a great position in that it has a rich history of ten/eleven/twelve years of consistent gameplay and stories to leverage and entice people in. Advertising on gaming forums and NWN Facebook Group might well draw in new players, and the there’s advertising on the CoA Facebook Group and even sending out an e-mail to all registered accounts on the forums. I’m positive people won’t mind the intrusion of an e-mail from Arabel just promoting the server, showing its still around, and inviting them to pop in.
In response to the call to introduce some method to gain XP without having to grind quests, I think it might be an idea to reconsider introducing, for lack of a better term, heart beat xp. Every RL hour or IG hour, whatever, you’re in game you gain X amount of xp. This was previously rebutted for fear of players just lingering in the hub of the time soaking up xp while afk or what have you. However, the server has moved on now, the casual player is less and less and as a general rule people log on to do something. Be it roleplay or questing, whatever, they’re not idling.
Leading on from the above, as a policy stand point, be more liberal with roleplay xp, but also be consistent. Discuss it among yourselves as DMs the scale of xp permissible for roleplay, to avoid Joe Bloggs getting 2,000xp for the same thing Jane Stark gets 200xp, and consistently apply it.
Something I’ve always thought would be a handy idea and feels more relevant now than ever is a tweak to the application process. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it certainly applies, and maybe retain the traditional method of applying. However, I would love to see a quick-fire approach introduced. My rationale is that for every day a player is waiting on their application is another day with one less player being in game. Which is certainly felt these days when you’re getting 10 to 20 players at peak time, and less outside it. Try and coordinate three or so DMs to be on IRC for an hour or so throughout the week, set up a channel, and allow players to “book” appointments and just walk the DMs through their concept and get a yes / no there and then. I know the DMs apply a 24hour confirmation stage on applications, and that might be necessary for the more outlandish concepts, but really, a standard Militiaman/Hardcastle retainer concept shouldn’t need long to settle. Basically, make it easier and quicker to apply for the special perks and positions.
The renown system is fantastic in theory but won’t work in practice. For the same reason Roleplayer of the Week was removed people up-vote their friends, and those cliques that have been mentioned will mean RL friends reap the rewards rather than the intention of the scheme, deserving roleplay. It’s a brilliant idea though, it would just need some serious consideration of how to apply to the server without being exploited.
Another issue I have is I look at the DM Team, and Zool aside, I don’t really know any of them. I don’t mean I don’t know who they played, although that may help inform the point I’m to make, I mean I don’t know anything about them. What interests them? What plots are they looking to push? What timezone are they in? There’s a “Know Your DM” thread somewhere in the forum that I’d encourage the DMs to use. It informs me who I should be approaching with my ideas. “Oh, Dungeon Master A loves dark cultist plots, this concept I want to push would be perfect for him, I’ll speak to him.”
Finally, the server is set-up for a larger player base. I know from wandering around the last week or so accommodations have been made to cater to a lower player base, but I don’t think it’s gone far enough. Lower the questing party limitations on more quests. And, in a much broader sense and, unfortunately, requiring much more effort, consider updating the setting. We’ve been in this current incarnation of Arabel for two/three years? It might be an idea to begin working behind the scenes on the next chapter, one that plays to the current state of the player base, one that brings people closer together and accommodates all the different sorts of concepts people might want to play. I’m sure you have willing builders and contributors from the player base that will chip in, and it’s a proven way to bring people back to the server. People will come to see what’s changed and whether it appeals.
-
I would like to address the various points raise here, after reading all them several times to make sure the subtleties were not missed. With your permission, I would actually touch the Mechanics aspects last. I apologize in advance for the very long post, but it is my intent to address each and every point:
@On:
I've been saying it for a while… but a neutral hub would make an entire world of difference. Basically the spire accessible to all even if the rest of the city is not. It would provide much needed interaction for those who die to the ooc boredom of exile.
It's actually a very centric goal of my next character if it hasn't been implemented before then >.>
**You are absolutely right. In the last couple of months(Perhaps even more) we have seen a rise in what would soon be fondly called the ACoG with Lawful/Good characters getting to shine under the spotlight, while others not so much. This stemmed from the progressive thinking that the members of ACoG are the heroes of the story while the others were the villains. However, Evil or villain those are players too and they also deserve to succeed and make ripples in the pond that is CoA - It is the job of the DMs to decide how crazy the ripple is and where a line should be drawn. But this should be done through RP and talking with said players constantly.
In the upcoming week we are going to open up an Anti-Law faction, and provide alot more support to Anti-Law characters, while accentuating the importance that they do tell a good story because no one likes when a Half Black Dragon quest trains to level 11 and only then throw their weight around.
We will also look to create a neutral hub, but bear in mind that we dont want to start seeing Paladin Joe and his sworn Enemy Wereturtle Bob sitting in the same confined space and drinking with their pals - Because that would be rather immersion breaking.**@On:
Encourage people to play longer term characters. Some of this will come from investment in the goings on of others and the world as a whole; when people feel as though they have roots in a community, they're more apt to stay and even stay with the character they're playing. That's not a /BAD/ thing, despite what people might think (not without reason!) about characters growing stale, having an investment in the world keeps people logged in and coming back day after day. Especially that journey to the top of whatever you're trying to accomplish.
AND
What's with the limitations involving alts? I had two characters going on at the same time and I was repeatedly hammered because of it. Wouldn't alts help us artificially elevate our PC numbers? I get it that there's metaknowledge involved with people playing more than one character but isn't everyone in Arabel a veteran roleplayer to begin with? I don't think people would abuse having an alt or two so they could play different plots when one doesn't fit at the moment.
**I would be frank and say that as a player I didnt like Alt characters and didnt even bother involving them. Why do you ask? Because I felt that at times it was a slap across the face to players who spend months and years with the same character, trying to push things around, only to get their plot hijacked by Random Fighter #5649 who will then log off with the Epic item of many Plots #56 never to return with the same character again. That is a mindset some DMs might also share, seeing their hard work going down the drain.
That being said we do not discourage people from playing Alts if they so choose, but we do not allow players with Apps/Sub-races/Important Role PCs to have two characters of the same caliber. That is why, while abit forgotten of late we have policies requiring players to play their main character X amount of time / Prohibiting them from playing in the opposing team as their Alt.I am not a burn fast and bright kind of player and do prefer long term Characters - But with that being said, we do not control what actions players take. Only their consequences. If someone does something that will get them executed after a month, we will have to react accordingly.**
@About:
Downplay the significance of NPC's who're obviously not important or give players more ability to handle it with as heavy a hand as they would express. Getting overruled by some random knobber because players will side with a DM controlled NPC regardless of their rank/social standing needs to be taken into account.
Stop shitting on player's accomplishments IC, make them unobtainable (and obviously so) or make them suitably impressive to npc's. Having some random farmer tell you he's not impressed because you did something no one else could do? Fuck. You. Dude. I don't care what the IC reasoning is (in this instance), I've seen it too often to see it as anything but a pattern. To be completely blunt, this kind of thing undermines the very idea of PC's as anything more than disposable minions on the way to retirement/death. Which, fair game, but respect where it's due keeps people invested and feeling as though they're somehow unique.
**That is perhaps a mindset that the playerbase needs to correct. Many players would agree with anything a DM NPC says, even if some regular Commoner because they believe not doing so would prevent them from going to some amazing quest with amazing loot(If the Commoner is discovered to be some kind of Archmage with his own Dungeon of cool items). But that is how the players give weight to said NPC and not us. Again I am referring to the very basic NPCs. Often NPCs of some minor authority, like Militia Privates, will be their to maintain the peace or even stir conflict and poke at villain Tiefling #32, who is sitting there in the Spire drinking drinks. Its their job to maintain the peace and our interest to see players are faced with some conflict.
Regarding the second point: If you are a Militia Private who defeated a small band of Goblins, why would a farmer from say Suzail would even know who you are? We forget that Adventurers and Mercenaries are a dime in a dozen. You have to be pretty unique for your fame to cross borders of land. We dont stop anyone from trying to be a special snowflake if they work for it.
NPCs however have their place and role in the ambiance of the server:
-
They are meant to have their own personalities(And when they do we even record them as DMs so other DMs can use them in the future).
-
They are meant to have their own dreams/goals/agendas.
-
They are entitled to their own opinions, even if they sometimes dont show it.
-
They worked hard to get into their positions as well.
-
They are a DM's first and foremost tool to tell the story - Before all the fancy gadgets and DM tools.
I agree that they should note Player accomplishments(Within reason and within the scope of regional influence of the said player's accomplishment). But sometimes characters demand respect after all they did was quest train and did nothing notable.**
@About:
-Grinding… The same few scripted missions over and over again just because you were killed and need to be level 9+ to be relevant in any way. Why not make the quests be more like the goblins one in the sewers? You enter an area, kill things, and build the narrative yourself. Make it feel more like exploring and less like sitting around in the Spire to see if you get enough people to talk to the NPC that will give you the same chore you did last night.
-The player requirement for missions is too high. Some times it's hard getting 3-4 players when no one is online. Make them 2-man, IMO.
**That is, I fear, the mindest of players. 95% of the players will always pick the same quests because they already know them / They offer the best loot, while avoiding the harder/more hated quests. But we have an amazing variety of quests in the server - 92+ Quests for various level ranges, which we work to maintain and also balance if they arent being done much. We also often work to add even more quests. But we cannot control what the players decide to do or what quest train they go on. So this point is entirely up to you as a playerbase. We implemented and continue to implement the variety - Its up to the players to use this bountiful variety or not. I would point out that there are alternatives to questing, to get levels/XP. I have seen my share of PCs that got full levels worth of experience from doing things IG and just telling a story.
The problem with reducing requirements of needed players per quests is that:
-
Often the more seasoned players will just two-man them and avoid inviting people altogether. We aim for inclusion and this will hinder that greatly. Because if we reduced the requirement Barbarian Joe and Wizard Billy will go and do things themselves, while you might still be there in the Spire waiting for a partner to help you(Even though you are at the same level as them).
-
Quests are balanced and reducing the requirements means having to rebalance all the quests in terms of loot and Encounters, which is a very tedious work. Rebalancing of a quest can sometime take up to ten hours(If we include tweaking -> testing -> re-tweaking -> testing again -> etc). A time better spent introducing new storylines, doing things In game or adding new systems.
I believe that once numbers pick up however, lack of players to get stuff done will be less of an issue. One thing to note though: Levels when telling a story is meaningless. I have seen my share of PCs that couldnt get past level 5-6 and still made some ripples in the pond.
I am additionally going to start making more crawl-able dungeons that does not require a DM or a Quest giver - My only concerns here would be of people trying to solo such places. This is something we will need a mechanical method in place to ensure it does not happen, out of courtesy to the players who do spend time to gather a party and involve players.**
@On:
Personally the thing that has stopped or rather delayed me from making a character right now is that I've just come back and the server seems to be holding its breath. From what I gathered InGame it feels like we are about to hit the climax of a plot/war that I haven't been here for, so i can't really see a spot for a new character trying to feel out the setting again.
I am not sure how far away it is from the big finale but at the moment I am waiting to see if the new version of Arabel is close before I roll a new concept.
I do not agree with this approach. Players should still continue to make their own plots, strive to get their own agenda across and their their own stories.
Sometimes a plot takes longer than anticipated to progress for various reasons. This should not deter you from doing other things - Perhaps things to raise the chances of success in the metaplot to come? Waiting till we reach a climax or a plot to be over is a mistake in my honest opinion.@On:
-Death is too… Meaningless, to me. I tried RPing the death of a friend as something impactful, then she was resurrected. I played along, but then she died and came back the same day. It happened once more not 24 hours later and I... Just couldn't get into it. In my eyes, people should fall unconscious when downed - it would make it RPable and immersive. Death as it stands is something you can fix with some gold or a scroll. It's meaningless! (RP-wise, not mechanics-wise. Mechanics-wise it's a pain in the di-)
-Also, death is too punishing mechanically while still managing to be meaningless RP-wise. IMO.
**I once played in a server where Death was permanent, no matter what you did. You could have died to a poisoned arrow from a Goblin or while fighting against an Archdemon ; You could have died at level 7 or at level 1.
My question is: Would you feel satisfied to know your amazing concept, which you spent over two weeks to plan, died to a Goblin at level 1 and their story ended? Probably not.
You will notice that most players actually RP their Respawning as being on the brink of death but somehow surviving. But we as DMs rarely enforce a perma death, and most of the time its up to the players to decide what they want to do when their character died.If you ask me? I want my death to be meaningful: Like when War Wizard Henri Labelle, sacrificed himself to save everyone in the Citadel. Or like Aurix(Arkham's Half Gold Dragon) that died doing what he believed in, perishing against a Legion's attack on Eveningstar. Or even like the Half Shadow Dragon Zygaxothim, that died doing something that he knew was way above his pay grade. I want to be able to tell a story before I died. And that is what is important. People choose to be raised/Respawn and we are leaving that up to the players in 98% of the cases.
Regarding the mechanical aspect of it: Death has to be feared. Since this is a game and we do not enforce perma death, the only other way to make people fear for their characters' lives is through the loss of XP. In V4 and prior to that, btw, when you died you also lost all your gear - Which often meant the end of your character. We rose above that point, so death is far less punishing that it was. That punishment also serves another purpose - Keeping the level of the server balanced. You will find that most if not all Servers on NWN has some penalty system in place when you die. Because, like us, they also recognized the importance of instilling fear in the players so that their characters will also feel it.**
@On:
…
**I do think starting to point fingers and calling names, is counter productive to the entire discussion, so let us avoid it.
It is important to note that as DMs, we do volunteer work to maintain the server in both creative and mechanical outlets. All of us have jobs/personal lives/families, but still we try and dedicate immeasurable amount of hours due to our love of the Community and the Game. On this weekend alone I spent over 40+ hours doing things and fixing things. And yes, we cannot always hold our players' hands like done in other servers because we need to not only write new content all the time but also: Fix bugs, script/build new systems, address suggestions to balance things, police griefers or flame wars over the forums. Believe me when I say, that every man, woman or Hominid in the DM team are well invested in this community and their are doing alot to make it blossom. This is a hobby for us, just as much as it is to you. But, we do have a tedious screening process to ensure the right individuals are hand-picked to continue the work of other DMs that leave, due to lack of time.
I would also share from my vast experience of 14 years, playing NWN: DMs are story tellers and often without them(Like I have seen in the past), or without some involvement from them, a server dies and a community perishes. We do tend to take a step back when we see influential characters taking the reins and telling an awesome story, and we spend time helping them tell it. But when that doesnt happen we step in. We also tell the metaplot of the Server at the time, because it sets the players into the right mood of the setting, and also gives them a great threat/enemy/goal to work towards.
Our imaginary door is always open, if you want to discuss your ideas and what you want to achieve. But the rule of thumb is? Involve people and ensure you and them have fun. Thats it. The rest would follow soon after. Feel free to reach out to me over a PM if you need have anything to discuss. Despite my ominous nickname and love for Suicider Goblins, I am a rather nice person.**
@On:
…
**Almost everything can be coded or built. But, would you rather we spend time adding new stuff instead of:
-
Fixing what is currently broken?
-
Addressing possible balance/exploit issues?
-
Telling a story or a Metaplot?
-
Writing new Content?
-
Improving old outdated systems?
-
Focusing on your Player Plots and goals?
I often believe that we strive to be a MMORPG, when we are not. We can introduce such systems slowly over time, yes. But, and that is a big one: I personally believe that all the mentioned above shouldnt get interrupted in the process. In my short time as a DM here, I took upon myself to fix all the problems and all the bugs I saw as a player. To see that Bug reported are handled and addressed as quickly as possible. That alone took me over 200+ hours. You can multiply that by 2-3 and you get the amount of time needed to add some of the new systems.
I am not trying to cry you a river, mind you. We(And me) chose to do this. But we also have to prioritize and I believe that if we put it to a vote, 82% of the playerbase will rank a storyline and fixing the already broken systems far higher than adding new systems at the moment. I am not saying outright no, and like Zool, I believe much of the list can be added over time. But this shouldnt be a reason not to play here because at the end of the day - We are here for the story.
My last advice? Log in and play. The rest will be fixed as we go along, I promise you.**
-
-
Hey guys, I thought about staying out of this one and maybe I should be I cant help myself.
I think we, meaning Players and DM's focus on the Big Plots/Events to much and because of this the RP is gone. Players just wait around for the next event to get the loot or advancement in the game.
It is nice to have a large plot like the ' Silence ' and ' War ' but really many players just want to be involved. That could mean just a simple DM XP reward for RP, a small quest to find some farmers daughter taken by bandits or goblins. A small shrine build after RP and working for your gods values. The SIMPLE things maybe the best way to put it.
Players also like to see things happen. I mean if they do some ritual or get players involved and there is no DM around, add some little change to the sever but respect what has happened in the past. Players see things happen or changes made ( that make sense ) after doing something, keeps them interested and want to play the character more, which funny enough gets others players involved.
We all love our characters and we get angry or even mad when things you have been working on for months, go up in flames because someone else happened to get a DM to watch or oversee something.
Building and Areas … sorry to say this but it really needs a lot of work. It is hard for a players who walks past a floating tree and another placeables or something blocking your way. Areas that don't make sense or you end up in a different place because you look at a map and you go WTF. I can go into more details but I will leave it with that. Even with the current HAKS and Tilesets you have so much to work with.
Its the little 1% stuff that makes all the difference.
We need if we are to keep the Mod small and not have link areas, on trans a message stating that you traveled down the road for a number of hours and found your way to ' X 'town/place/dungeon. A travel system could help with this … random areas with random spawn. Simple a wagon/caravan on the road with some goblins around it or what ever monster you want. I think we had a ' Sleep/Dream ' random thing once.
I heard this before and I really don't like it ' Its the City of Arabel, not the Wilds of Arabel ' .. something like that. We offer these classes/races and they should be supported if the player wish to play them. We need the team to focus on what the players are trying to do, yes put road blocks in their way and add conflict but if the goal is to hard to get to or the time frame is too long then we as players will loss interest.
This is NOT a direct attack but some feedback
This is just my thoughts and feelings
You may Troll now if needed.
RD
-
Building and Areas … sorry to say this but it really needs a lot of work. It is hard for a players who walks past a floating tree and another placeables or something blocking your way. Areas that don't make sense or you end up in a different place because you look at a map and you go WTF. I can go into more details but I will leave it with that. Even with the current HAKS and Tilesets you have so much to work with.
Please make Bug tickets with all the wrong things you see: Placeables, Areas, Conversations, you name it. Just add as much info as possible(Including maps for locations and Screenshots) and we will get right on it.
-
tldr; DMs are cool folks, so are our players, were all just trying to game together. No one is perfect. Summer and whatever else influences low numbers. I feel like the worst forum for legitimate discussions will happen in General Discussion. It's 2 comments away from being about PvP already.
-
I am glad this kind of thing can be honestly discussed without anyone getting offended to be honest. Often it's not until someone points out something; (such as my comment regarding waiting for server plots), that you think "Hm come to think of it that does sounds pretty silly" Kudos for the replies Strife.
-
If anyone needs help with concepting for the server currently I'd be willing to help. Hit me up on IRC when i'm on. My username is Verk.
Also i'm willing to show people around and get them acclimatised to the current setting
-
I too when on will help you get started as much as I can ICly as possible and oocly if needed if I KNOW YOU ARE A NEW PLAYER! Details, all about the details. Selene In game Zolm on IRC and Deputy Helion to any non law abiding citizen
-
I was linked to this thread by friends, so here I am.
Slushie has hit so many points, its almost painful to read. Its like a list of things we could have done in the past ten years, but never did. I hope going forwards, that many of those things happen. There is an odd bias against systems taken for granted in other servers, that is attempting to shepherd player behavior in certain ways. Even though desired player behavior rarely if ever occurs in 10 years, and this enforced conditioning is still going on. Many systems taken for granted in almost 90% of other servers are not present in CoA, and I can't fathom the reasons why. Most NWN players now have been playing for 5-10 years. Imagine they come to CoA after a wealth of experience on other servers. What would they see? They would question why things are done this way. Why no banking? Why no player housing? Why such 2005-era player customization? Why can't we sell things to NPCs? How do we make money?
–-----------------------------
"Much, much more opportunity for non-app characters to get involved in positions of power. Why /SHOULD/ you need an app for a militia private? Why /COULDN'T/ you campaign to your fellows and have them vote for your promotion to sergeant and /then/ app for anything higher?"
"This really just needs more DM attention to have happen I guess, as it's technically already entirely possible, but is being suggested so clearly isn't visible enough."According to what I have been told, a DM has to pick up the idea, and write an app for the PC, and then seek approval from other DMs. Basically, you need a DM to champion your character. I have seen and experienced widespread PC support die in the face of a failed app. I have also seen amazing, AMAZING things happen if done correctly. Suffice to say however, that players who are not favored will not have this happen. Senior PCs in DM or DM-lite factions, have zero power to promote underlings.
–-----------------------------
I perceive that this is endemic of how Players and Characters are seen in CoA. They are interchangeable cogs, replaceable. Relatively important but unessential. Its not about what the player wants to do. Its about whether the player is doing something interesting enough to warrant attention. I've often seen evidence that players are along for the ride. Supporting actors on a stage where the main actors have already been cast, and are unreplacable. Actions by PCs can have huge consequences to the plot, but often the plot has already been written, and PCs are just on a train track.
If CoA wants players, they have to start treating players as the stars of the server, and not the audience to be entertained.
-
I think Thune kind of hit the nail on what I was trying to convey without coming off combative. Yeah, this is basically my feeling 100%.
Most of these mechanical systems can be pulled from the vault, but culture/mentality is firmly in the hands of the dm team. I'm willing to pull together a module of the different systems I wrote about, and make sure they work together and are sufficiently modular, but I'm not willing to do it if it's just going to be ignored. My time is kind of super important to me but the /desire/ is there.
-
Regarding haks, I had been told before that it might be looked at, but that cosmetic haks for PCs were unimportant and unlikely to be included. I then spent 12 hours building a cosmetic file for CoA, but was unable to find anyone willing to take it. Majority didn't have the technical skill required for implementation, and thus regretfully declined.
-
Never heard of that, I will gladly take a look! I like clothes >_>
-
"Why /SHOULD/ you need an app for a militia private?"
In regard to this specifically I am not sure how the Militia works now but when I was a member of the City Guard you had some pretty powerful abilities like the arrest teleport that could easily be used to grief players in the wrong hands. Being a part of the Militia required quite a bit of OOC grace, hence the app.
-
Two things for me:
1. Easier app approvals for factions. Passing a militia or HC should be a day or so, not a week. Subraces can be a little longer.
2. Players need to support other PCs plots, and not just when your buddy is involved. I more or less quit making plot sendings because no one comes. But if its someone else, more mechanically proficient or DM popular, people come in droves…
-
So, I skimmed through most of this, and will read a lot of it more thoroughly tonight. There are a lot of good things in here I hadn't even thought of, and some that I have been saying myself the last few weeks as well. That being said, as DM's, we can make all the changes in the world and it won't make a difference if the players aren't doing their part to chip in.
A year ago this past may/june, I returned to the server to numbers that were quite similar to the numbers we have had over the last few weeks. Player's were hardly questing, because they didn't have the "optimal group for profit", and while there were a few good villains for the most part nothing seemed to be going on. So, me and a dude I never heard of before and haven't seen since (goatman) spent about two weeks blazing through consumables and doing quests that had us tanking for characters that were a few levels higher then us. We didn't fly through the quests to get to the next one as fast as possible, but rather took our time with each one roleplaying the whole way through. Within a week, the numbers had improved from 10 players at peak time to 15. Then Pol came back, livened up the server story lines giving us DM stuff to work on, and the peak times quickly were up to 20 players again. Outside of a dip around last fall when everyone was going back to school, that held pretty strong for quite some time, even reaching 30 players sometimes during peak times when spiffy joined the team. It took a perfect storm of events happening to ruin that a month ago, but the reality is it was easy to revive a year ago, and it will be easily revived again.
But it can't just be all on the dms, we need you guys to help us out with it too. In fact, the role the players play is far more important then the role dms play, because the reality is there is 5 or so of us regularly active at any given time compared to 30-50 players rotating in and out, so you guys have the power to do more on your end. You also don't have to worry about fixing bugs, approving apps, debating plots, overseeing pvp, listening to player complaints and talking the most outraged back from a ledge, spending 10 hours to build an area for an event that goes for 2 hours at most, ect, ect, ect.
The one post I will respond to directly is of course Thune's, since its somewhat misguided. Players have always been the star's of CoA, and we love player driven plots. But, if its a plot that you came up with but requires the DM's to do everything needed to push it forward, its no longer a player plot. It's a DM plot dictated by a player. That's not to say that DM's don't like helping players who get other's involved in their stuff, in fact we love doing that. But, if you come up with an idea and are waiting for a DM to make it a thing for you, there's really no potential for anything there except disappointment.
-
reediting to be nicer so the discussion isn't overshadowed.
-
oops, meant to quote this and ended up editing. I'm such a noob lol. CF
1.Stop rewarding just the showrunners for plots. Don't forget about the little guy. Very often, the "meatshields" are thrown into the grinder and come out with jack-all but the "opportunity" to participate. Don't reward "spamming same event until DM reward materialize" if players are just being used to make up numbers. Everyone involved should have some sort of connection to the plot, not "randoms" to make up numbers and seem like the showrunner is involving people. Reward people for having networked friends, rather than spamming sendings and discarding the adventurers after. Ensure that people are actually rewarded for participation, rather than regretful. Utterly clamp down on morale-killing discarding of players after they have served their purpose of boosting numbers for a player event.
Loot is mostly decided upon by players, at least on my events. Yes, I tend to reward players that push plots rather then the tag along's with a unique piece of loot, but if that doesn't happen to some degree what is the reward for putting the effort forth?
2. The mentality of "earning" rewards in game is a sad and brutal struggle, that very few casual players and many of the players in game STRUGGLE HORRIBLY with. As a general rule, it is always the same players who regularly are able to do great stuff in game. You can probably name five or ten of them immediately. Do they deserve it? YES. They do. They are awesome players, awesome RPers. But what about the rest of the server who are struggling? Some people can't even get to level 7. Some people try damn hard and put in huge hours and get nothing and nowhere. CoA is an unfair game by its very nature. Certain players have, by combination of playtime, playstyle, and personal ability, a huge advantage over other players. How long do you think the -other- players are going to stick around if they aren't given a reason to stay? What has been done to keep them playing? How has things been fun for them? To continue with the car analogy, how many times are they going to see other players race by at high speed before they stop trying to race? Throw a dog a bone. Spread out the "wins."
The emphasis has been on "Players must make fun for others to get any DM attention" instead of "Players should be having fun and getting DM attention".
Please stop making play into work.I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. If achieving things in game were as simple as saying "I want to do this" and then it happens, how much replay value would the game really have? Yes, a game like this is more work then say a ps4 adventure game, but isn't that the point? Don't you want to feel like you accomplished something difficult to get to where you are?
3. If players are to help DMs, make the process easier. Right now, asking for help is like having to go to the principle's office, knock on the door, and if someone answers, you get to pitch something. But hmmm. Its interesting. Tell you what, you do a bunch of stuff and in two weeks, maybe I will give you something. You have to shop around, knocking on teacher's doors, hoping that one of them would be available to answer your questions and maybe give you some help.
If players are to step up and do stuff, perhaps instead of having to climb walls, they should be getting boosts. Don't just deny apps outright, tweak the app and make players an offer. "Hey, if you take out this, or if we just give you this rather than that, I think we can make this work". They spent 20 minutes to 2 hours writing that app. If its a serious and detailed app, don't deny it, TWEAK it so that it is acceptable.
We do do this lol. I have said a million times over "just send the app in, let the team discuss it, and we will come back with potential tweaks on how to make it work." I consider it an opening offer in a negotiation. Sometimes we take it because its perfect already, sometimes we come back with feedback. More often than not when it doesn't come to an accord its because a player is unwilling to make the changes we think are necessary to make it fit in the game world. As far as the principle analogy, a principle is paid to be in his office waiting for people like you to come along. I know personally I am constantly wrestling with the fact that I spend too much time on CoA and not enough on real life, and I would be shocked if the other active dms didn't feel the same. Maybe try a little patience?
4. It is too damn hard to be a low level these days. We are not newbie friendly quest-wise. Nowadays, people are doing everything they can to jump from 1 to 6 A.S.A.P. to avoid the utter misery of unrewarding lowbie quests. These quests are how new players are introduced to the server. Its hard enough with low numbers, cliches, TELL-groups, lack of sendings, lack of responses to sendings and all other obstacles. But struggling to make ends meet, and being unable to sell any of the loot to anyone, NPC or PC, that you found will drive away any newbie. And there are other pastures out there, just as green.
I actually agree with you here, even if I don't like the way you worded it, since it seems like you are less about coming to a common understanding and more about pointing your finger and saying "This is what you are doing wrong! Dance for me!"
5. Failurescade. This is close to heart and very personal. The Failurescade. Its a series of failures in game, that continuously build up and eventually, sap the will to play, and all enjoyment out of the game. It dosen't matter how much you love roleplaying, if playing feels like defeat. Being defeated once is fine. Being defeated twice is fine. But a string of constant defeats over several months and several characters with zero rewards?
learned helplessness: a condition in which a person suffers from a sense of powerlessness, arising from a traumatic event or persistent failure to succeed. It is thought to be one of the underlying causes of depression.
People stop trying. But they don't stop caring. That is perhaps the saddest part. It also feeds a bitter cycle.
While i agree that this is a problem, I really disagree with what the actual cause is. If your fun is dependent on your success, then you are playing the wrong game. CoA is about the journey, both success and epic failure is the end of the line. Try relaxing, and enjoying the journey for what it is. When that becomes the focus failure or success doesn't really matter.
I don't mean to pick on you, but this thread was actually really helpful for everyone, both DM's and players alike, and now its turning into a list of things that Piss Thune off. Trust me, that is well documented on these forums, and while I know you want us to fix all of it for you I would prefer to focus on what is better for the server as a whole. I think that as a team we are pretty good these days of spreading the love around compared to days past, not because the older dms didn't care but because the lower numbers allow us to do that. Sure, we all have our pet peeves that turn us off from certain players, but even that is very limited. Mine personally is people who spend time bragging on irc about their ig accomplishments, especially when they are heavily exaggerated. But I even give those people love, so…maybe a little more about what could make the server better for everyone, and less about your personal gripes?
-
Factions like the militia NEED to have applications because you are given the power to abuse your powers and basically tear apart another's character if you abuse this power OOC-ly (o even ic-ly sometimes).
I got to address the issue that Cap mentioned. There is another cycle i have mentioned quite a bit, especially to DMs. During periods of extreme DM presence, for example like after Spiffy was DM'd (he's been VERY active), we, the players tend to get lazy. When the DM is so proactive, we tend to stop doing our own thing and jump from one DM event to the next and when they get less frequent or stop coming altogether, we realize we neglected our own things and we need to step up again to make our own shit happen or even work to help others do theirs. Sometimes the best thing to move your own stuff is to help another move theirs.
However, i will add one thing that also concerned me. It -is- impossible to get players interested in certain things player made when there is shiny DM loot and XP waiting around the corner on a DM event that players can't match or promise. Another is that it is also disheartening to see one shot DM events reward things that are both cooler and more powerful than what awaits some people at the end of a long personal plots. But DMs and players need to talk to each other on things like that.
But yes, we've been a bit spoiled by Spiffy especially lately, and when that happens, we tend to forget that we are responsible for making our own fun. The DMs, as influential as they can be in that, are not the key there, we are.
-
However, i will add one thing that also concerned me. It -is- impossible to get players interested in certain things player made when there is shiny DM loot and XP waiting around the corner on a DM event that players can't match or promise.
I saw this a lot on Elise to be honest. I would make a sending, just gather up enough people to actually attempt something and then we would get a random DM quest sending and everyone would flock to that.
I'm not saying it's bad, more just that, when possible we should try to tie in the DM quests with whatever's actually happening at that point in time. I know it doesn't always work but it will make it easier.
On the player side of things though, we need to stop bitching that DM events don't go the way we want. I've heard it a lot since my return that people are upset their DM event didn't go as planned. Though in some instances, a little complaining was justified, most of the time it's just complaining because you didn't "Win" the way you wanted.