Law + Punishment + Trials + enforcing = Making it work
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I'm trying to make a point with the specific event.
My suggestion is that the DMs should reiterate or make clear what the procedure is. It's my belief that the pit worked well for what it was; there were sometimes those long trials, and sometimes the short trials, and sometimes just PCs throwing other PCs into the pit with some reasonable excuse, and it was fluid.
Maybe not fun because the pit is difficult to scale to different classes - some people would breeze right through, some people would get stuck (like I did) at level 11, but it wasn't a bad method of doing things.
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On the contrary, we compile alot of evidence on things. But we do not share a forum with the Militia any more. And yes, the system is muddled, very much so. Deliberately, I feel, to drive conflict.
For example, we are having an argument OOCly and ICly about whether PDs are law enforcers or not. Each side is quoting DMs and the lawbook, and neither are convincing the other side.
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I'm going to take a gander and suggest that most of that OOC/IC discussion about whether PDs are law enforcers or not is due to people forgetting something - NPCS are NOT DMS. Just because an NPC, with a personality and various IC ideas says to do something, does not mean a DM is saying to do something - meaning that people forget NPCs are NPCs and they lie, or have alterior motives, or certain ideologies and reasons to push for certain outcomes. This does not mean a DM is saying "this is the law" -
The lawbook is pretty simple. I'm blown away that there could be an argument about this. It clearly states PDs CANNOT make arrests UNLESS martial law is declared. Their focus is EXTERNAL threats, not internal. There are exceptions to this, sometimes. But generally this shouldn't even be a discussion.
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Except DMs have explicitly stated PD can make arrests outside of Arabel, and the lawbook explicitly states PDs can make arrests outside of Arabel as well.
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Except DMs have explicitly stated PD can make arrests outside of Arabel, and the lawbook explicitly states PDs can make arrests outside of Arabel as well.
You are correct on this, but allow me to clarify. Outside of Arabel doesn't mean outside the city walls. What it means, is outside of Lord HardCastle's jurisdiction. The Militia didn't exist when the city was created. The Militia was put in underneath Lord HardCastle's and the Council's decision to help police Lord HardCastle's lands which have been trusted to him by the king, because obviously HardCastle can't be everywhere at once nor has the supplies to fund a private police force to do so.
The way the laws work are changed a little once martial law is instated. But that doesn't mean martial law happens automatically whenever a monster attacks the city either. If anything big like that would happen there would be a wide reaching announcement to bring everyone onto the same page.
Honestly though, the Militia could easily just say "We deputize every PD that ever exists so they can help us with law stuff." but..eh. shrugs
Going back on topic though, I do like the idea of the penal legion and pit, if they can be done correctly. But the system isn't perfect and I don't think it ever will be.
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Realistically in the setting if you get caught stabbing someone, the militia is just going to stick you in hole somewhere and forget about you; Cormyr really shouldn't be as litigious as modern societies. I know the 3 hour trial is a long standing tradition in CoA to give appearance of fairness but it has never been fun.
For the fun of the game I like Relonor's penal legion suggestions and for all crimes- I think it's a cool system. Bad guys forced to work for the city and power to the militia to kill them off if they don't- it still makes playing evil and getting caught fun. With a system for them getting off for time served or heroic deed done I think it is an awesome idea and from what I've seen in game it creates interesting interactions and characters. Under this system you could run a criminal organization lead by a dirty cop using his conscripted legionaries as henchmen, do the whole dirty dozen thing where you send criminals off on a suicide mission…
I think the militia should have the power to assign someone to the penal legion for a few days without much evidence or hassle and the only people who should get trials are those people who have the backing of a faction/noble/powerful NPC and in those cases I think it would be more interesting if those people were used as political capital. For example the militia catches a Thayan guard in an assassination attempt. The guard is then traded back to the Thayan embassy for money/goods/service or information. A Lord Lhal retainer could get caught spying on the Thayan embassy and she would have to make concessions to not have that agent turned over to Thay for punishment. It would make sense that come NPCs (and PCs) in the militia would have loyalties and sympathies for certain factions and tip the leaders of those factions off when one of their agents could be going to the chopping block and work a deal for them. It might be a little push for people to align themselves with factions and up the political intrigue side of things.
This describes how I would like to see things work better then anything I could type up.
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Authorize PCs to do trials. Drop the idea that trials need to be ICly fair. They can be horribly corrupt and still be awesome for all involved. Punish OOC bitching.
Done.
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@SpiffyHas:
Authorize PCs to do trials. Drop the idea that trials need to be ICly fair. They can be horribly corrupt and still be awesome for all involved. Punish OOC bitching.
Done.
No, trials don't need to be ICly fair. Crooked cops etc all add to the fun and intrigue of the game and as I stated earlier, I am fully in support of such things. However - PCs with this kind of power MUST BE HELD TO A HIGH STANDARD. Having the power to sentence someone, having absolute control over the fate of another PC, much like pvp, MUST BE ENJOYABLE for the PC on the receiving end. While this is directed against no PC or Player in particular, quite frankly I'm not sure in the current climate of the server that such a thing would be good - it seems to me (AND THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION), that, with the mob ACoG mentality and law enforcement tending to side with/protect 'good' because it's 'good' that would only make things worse in the current environment.
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There was talk of bringing back the Knights of the Merciful Sword from v3 which was a Paladin order whose responsibility was holding trials for PC criminals. Being Paladins made them extremely hard to corrupt and the head NPC could suspend or revoke a sentence if it was too harsh/light. I wouldn't mind it if they were brought back honestly
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Then try and become one of the people with sentencing power.
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I like the idea WildCard, but I don't think we have enough PCs anymore to tolerate things like the KoTMS or EO without them regulating each other by both existing at once.
Paladins detecting evil to decide a trial is just as harsh as Acolytes burning wizards who don't agree with them simply because someone called them bloodcasters.
My point here is, for IC judgement we need incredibly unfair trials standing right along side incredibly fair trials. The only way for it to be any fun is for there to be a level of surprise or sense of adventure involved in the whole concept of a trial. I'd like to suggest we keep thinking outside of the box on this. I like the idea of PC's deciding things for me instead of some DM possessed NPC who came in 45 minutes after my arrest to decide if I should get exiled. I want PCs to hold that responsibility because it affords them some sort of conclusion to said plot.
Obviously I'm a fan of the Penal Legion argument, I'm also a fan of the old school "banishment" system. Everyone here remembers how cool it was to be wandering the wilds and stumble across that notorious Arabellan villain who some how escaped justice and got himself banished.
Back on topic, my suggestion:
Judgement should be a PC decision that can also be overruled by PCs. Incredibly harsh punishments should be possible for those Judges who are declared corrupt by the PC body. So if said Militiaman is banishing everyone for petty crimes, said Militiaman should probably get banished if enough complaints are filed. Or hell, perhaps even allow stand-ins for trial by combat (Tyrion hiring Bron for example). Balancing the power is what I'm talking about here. Making shit fair/unfair is easy, regulating the judges is what's hard.Edit: Also- keep in mind these PC judges could be better than just fines, penal legion, the pit, banishment, execution. Let's go old world on this folks. If a wizard has been using necromancy, have another wizard silence him for a week. If a man struck a noble, take his sword and make him buy it back. If a pickpocket is captured, bury his gold in the hullack and make him retrieve it alone. Shun people, make it a fine if said person is spoken to.
I do think things like execution should be left to DMs. Abruptly ending a character can be gratifying for all parties, but DMs have a way of making it a bigger deal. Things like Joe Shmoe the PD cutting off a murderers head, alone in the woods, because he also earned the title "Judge" three months ago and this is the first level 3 he's been able to beat down on his own will occur if we let PCs start executing IC without supervision..
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The only reason DMs are even involved in law enforcement at all is because PCs have not shown the maturity and sportsmanship needed to handle it themselves. This is a big problem with a lot of "unsupervised" critical systems that potentially have the ability to disrupt other players. PCs let this sort of thing go to their heads and endless grief for the DMs always ensues.
Sure, some players do handle it responsibly, but we really need only one guy to ruin everyone's day.
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That's kind of why I was suggesting some sort of IC PC oriented judgment of the judges. Who were those nasty guys who watched over the EO? We need some sort of 'big brother' faction that does this.
The War Wizards would be great if we could ever have more than one at a time. Even purple dragons fear the wrath of the War Wizards. <.<
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Wouldn't be opposed to more than 1 WW at a time, but it is -the- hardest thing on the server to earn, and it should be. These guys essentially run the country, after all. A player who makes it there usually is afforded the kind of trust you're talking about. I'm not sure that having even a single WW around all the time is even possible, and I don't think anyone wants the standard for WW acceptance to go down.
The nasty guys in the EO, by the way, were called the Inquisition.
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Well, I can't believe I'm gonna suggest this but..
How about council of players that can overthrow crime related decisions made by both the purple dragons and militia?
edit: It could even consist of purple dragons -and- militia. Basically anyone with authority in the city. Their votes would be fought over. Favors done to gain favor in council, promises made and such. It would allow for some corruption.. But we could counter said corruption with an expiration date. These councilors could hold shorter terms to keep the presence fresh.
Hell, we could even force certain individuals to be councilors whether they like it or not, and if we think they're unfair we could slap them with some charges, or even execution.
I might be getting ahead of myself here..
Some sort of authority below the crown, yet above the city?
It would have to be balanced yet small I think.
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Theoretically possible. However, it would not be above the city, but below Lord Hawklin. He could technically appoint judges and such to hold trials and have votes. It should be limited to 3 people to keep it sane. Hawklin would accept the judgement as a matter of course, and only demur and make his own judgement if the decision is completely out of whack.
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It's the exact same problem as having a WW. A position like that has to go to responsible people. Our playerbase is mostly so, I do not contest that or imply all our players misuse their powers. But you've no idea how much trouble a few rogue attitudes can cause.
That's the principal problem. I don't even mean now, I mean since CoA started.
We did something of the sort with the Arbiters, but I suppose it can be revisited on a trial basis to see how it goes. But that's something the staff will need to take a call on. Restructuring NPCs and removing ones that impede the system is not really that hard.
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We had the KotMS holding trials with DM oversight back in v3. I dont know if it worked well or not, honestly, since I was never in the faction or put on trial by it. Perhaps something similar would work now, I dont know. I'm not in favor of creating yet another faction right now.
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I would like to make something that has links to the real world, to fantasy elements, to have an element of fun, yet retain utility.
1. Peace Officials (Militia, PDs) gather evidence of crimes, compiling it.
2. Peace Officials make formal charges against the suspect. Petty Crimes are handled on the spot by Justices of the Peace.
3. The Tribunal of Middle Justice, being 3 Judges appointed by the Lord Warden, considers Serious Charges and gives a verdict.
4. For Serious Crimes, the verdict and sentence is handled by the Tribunal.
5. For Capital Crimes, the Tribunal submits their advice to the Justiciar, who either agrees or disagrees, and then pronounces sentence if necessary.a. A Justice of the Peace is appointed by the Lord Warden of the Militia. He can be an Advisor, a Private in the Militia, a Noble, or anyone in between. It is more a position of trust than of power. He pronounces judgement, and sentences for petty crimes, minor pleas, and suits between parties.
b. The Tribunal of Middle Justice is appointed by the Lord Warden of the Militia. It can comprise of Advisors, Privates in the Militia, Nobles, or anyone in between. The Tribunal trials cases that deal with Serious Crimes, and can determine guilt or innocence. Tribunal members can be Justices of the Peace. While they cannot pass judgement for Capital Crimes, they can make recommendations to the Justiciar. The Tribunal has Permanent and Temporary Members. Permanent Members are those trusted enough to make sound judgements. Temporary are replacements or necessary inclusions when there are not enough Permanent Members.
c. The Court of the Justiciar is the Lord Warden of the Militia, or his appointed representative. Except for the War Wizards, the Justiciar is the only one who can pass a sentence of Execution. The Justiciar exclusively handles Capital Crimes.
d. Appeals are handled by the next higher court. If an Appeal is made, the next higher Court has the option to Allow or Dismiss. If Allowed, the Court may change the verdict of a lower court, or the sentence. If dismissed, it can be Dismissed with Costs, in which the appellant has to pay a fee. If Dismissed with Prejudice, the Court has the option of increasing the Sentence, up to Double the initial sentence. This is for ridiculous Appeals.
e. Verdicts are Guilty, Not Guilty and Not Proven. If found Guilty or Not Guilty, Double Jeapardy arises. The person may not be charged again for the crime. If Not Proven, the charges may be filed again with new evidence.
Just an idea. Would be lots of fun, and DMs rarely have to get involved, IMO. No new faction, just PCs already in game.
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This is good work.