Law + Punishment + Trials + enforcing = Making it work
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Alright, this started on irc, AND has started IC. But I think we would benefit from an actual OOC discussion of this also, one that is not based on what characters are played by who.
Before I continue, this is NOT an attack on any current or former militia, agent, PD, WW, Sheriff or what have you.To the discussion. Right now, it seems to me that we have alot of things that might not be working perfectly.
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The Pit idea was good, but was stopped because it is too dangerous and dull to throw people into the Pit by themselves. In the end, it became a quest area, for potential Agents. But most agents, having experienced the Pit, never used it. I know I did not.
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Trials are BORING. They are boring for the DMs who have to conduct them, they are BORING for the witnesses, and at least from my own perspective, they are BORING to hold, and BORING to be part of.
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Adding to Trials, currently we need for a dm to hold them. That dm, instead of running a lovely DM quest, preparing an event, has to run the trial.
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Punishments like exile, can kill characters, because they are forbidden from entering the places where they can engage with other players.
I would like to come up with a system, that is fair, both IC and OOC. It needs to create rather than hinder fun for both victims, lawenforcers and for criminals. In my eyes, that means it:
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Needs to be swift. Nothing is more dull, than having to wait 4 weeks from being a victim, to seeing someone receive a fine.
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Need to ensure that Guard PCs cannot automatically win. If you destroy evil entirely, you remove conflict entirely from the server, and that makes it dull as shit. So it needs loopholes, ways that make sense for criminal elements to escape, at least for a while.
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Need to be functional. Nothing is more boring, than playing a Guard, but effectively not being able to do ANYTHING, because there is no evidence, or because the system is so slow and ineffective, tht it more or less grants criminals legal immunity. And nothing is worse, than being a victim, and seeing wrong doers never be punished, no matter what they do.
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Needs to have some form of catch and release in place. This will allow evil and criminals to be evil and criminals from day one, without risking Permadeath.
It was because of this, I began proposing trial by combat IG. Because it could solve SOME problems. But, from an OOC point of view, I want to debate the current setting with the entire player base, so that we can come up with solutions that are FUN, and promote fun on the server, rather than what we currently have.
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I'd also suggest the following changes to the Penal Legion:
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Use it more. It's much more preferable to exile, because you can still play with other people. With low server population, exile is just a borefest that is likely to get people to quit their villians.
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Let serious + capital crimes allow for penal legion, with time served being different.
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Let the penal legionnaires keep their stuff (minus illegal stuff of course), but wear a cloak with their status. It makes it less irritating, BUT:
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A quick scripted item whipped up that allows lawmen to kill Legionnaires immediately. For example, the cloak is non drop, and a scripted item used on someone having the cloak will kill them immediately. Of course, removing said cloak is also grounds for execution.
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Legionnaires might visit illicit wizards and the like to see if the magic can be disabled or some such, there could be IG methods to do so, to add some intrigue to the other side of it.
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Make an NPC that you can get cloaks from, so a DM isn't required to set you up all the time, and you don't need to have a ton of armor lying around specifically for the criminals.
I think this will make the penal legion a lot more fun to work with. Naturally, being in the penal legion gets you no rights; For example, they can still quest (so it's not boring) but others are not required to split loot or gold with them.
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There is no expectation of evidence in game because literally, there IS no evidence to speak of. Except for contraband, all crimes are mostly closed by witness statements. There is no bar of what is necessary for conviction. PCs have been executed based on a single report. At the same time, a huge mountain of witnesses can be collected and another PC is near immune. The key to this is fairness. As a Guard Faction, we have to give some leeway, to allow criminals to grow. Stomping on them early on is no fun for anyone. Yet at the same time, we run the danger of being accused of being incompetent, ineffective, corrupt, because of such OOC limitations.
A corrupt Guard Faction PC can easily allow people to get free, by misinterpreting or disregarding evidence. In addition, the legal situation in Arabel is functionally retarded, because there is no clarity. Lord Hawklin is the Lord Warden, but who is Judge Johan? Why is Judge Johan passing sentences? Who is he? But Hawkling just passed a sentence. Can Hawklin override Johan? But Militia are passing sentences, are they allowed to? Do we have to ask a Judge? What level is a Private allowed to pass a sentence? A sergeant? Can Johan execute, or is that just Hawkling? Who is Johan anyway? Does he have a backstory? Does Crom or Hardcastle have a say in anything?
PDs can arrest. Its in the lawbook. Outside of Arabel we're the Law. Can we also pass sentences like Militia? Do we bring criminals before a judge? What level of crimes are we allowed to handle? We're Road Captains, that makes us Officers. Sergeants are still enlisted. What does that mean? Can Road Captains pass higher sentences than Sergeants outside of Arabel?
We're all winging it. Its Chaotic, not Lawful, in the Guard Faction.
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As far as trial by combat, is it really supposed to be that the truth will win out? because then a DM will have to determine the outcome and rig the combat. If not, whats the point?
No comment on anything else, as Pits etc is all after my playtime.
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Removed my post, I'm staying IC on this one
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I don't know why this is still an issue. It's been explained so thoroughly it makes me want to tear my hair out.
The Purple Dragons are not lawmen. They are soldiers and do no enforce the Law in Arabel. This is why we have the Militia, and someone's OOC idea of how it -should- be is causing me a lot of IC headaches.
The Purple Dragons deal with external threats to Cormyr's interests. The Wyvernwater, Witch Kings, invading armies, they all fall under these categories. They don't go after criminals because that makes the Militia redundant and keeps the Purple Dragons from doing what they're actually supposed to be doing in the region.
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Can we keep this on topic? This isn't about PDs and Militia. It's about an OOC discussion on a possible system that would be a more fun dynamic between lawmen and criminals.
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There is no procedure, nor formal process. Occasionally, an NPC judge would make rulings for serious crimes, occasionally PCs would make the judgement. Sometimes, Hardcastle will come out himself, occasionally invent a crime, and charge that person. I can think of 1 agent who was executed for treason because he was more interested in redeeming criminals than arresting them. It is generally understood that the written laws are just a guideline, and you can invent new ones so long as they are logical, and usually just minor or moderate crimes.
I believe there were very old rules I sort of remember about waiting times, time before you must make a charge, rules on how soon you have before you file a report or the fellow is let off, rules on never leaving a prisoner alone in his cell if you arrest him. These aren't written down anymore, and there is no institutional knowledge about it.
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The system, itself, does not seem to be broken. It works as intended as far as I understand it. The DM's don't have the time or the ability to intervene on every matter regarding the law. If they did intervene on every incident, it wouldn't allow for the vast amount of guard concepts we could potentially have. On that, the only things I would recommend changing are:
-I agree with Relonor's suggestions on the Penal Legion. I think having that as an option would make capital punishment more fun as I, personally, would dislike having to issue an exile or execution. I love the whole dynamic he suggested about the cloak.
-There are still some left over confusions from the transition that may be an IC thing, they may be an OOC thing, such as Johan Judge, the pit, etc. As the whole Johan Judge thing is a concept I do not understand enough to make an IC motion, I'd like to see a ruling on what his role is in the new Militia. Perhaps make it so the acting Warden is a judge in situations when there NEEDs to be a judge?
-Some of the questions raised are indeed, in relation to IG events/conflict and as such should probably be left to a different discussion. Such as the Purple Dragon's vs Militia debate which appear to be causing some OOC issues that I wish to stay out of and keep to IC on those.
-The system, in and of itself, Is mean to allow some power to a PC faction to keep things moving and add to stories without needing a DM ruling on everything. Unless we are indeed waiting on a DM ruling for ever trail or fine, I believe the delay in these issues is an IC one and should be treated as such. Some parts of the system aren't broke, they just aren't working to the full hope or expectations due to IC issues, which is realistic. In real police forces there are sometimes weeks of backlogs and things need to be shifted around based on priority. If anything, LESS reliance on DM intervention would speed these up, not more.
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It's not exactly fun for DMs, either. The only reason DM involvement is even necessary is because lawmen PCs in the past, have shown OOC "teh win" mentality and crush any hope of crime ever happening, often with draconian and sometimes even blatantly illegal measures that ICly, would see them on the stand, too. Then there's the OOC complaints, the endless OOC statements, the adjudication and endless OOC snide remarks for weeks afterwards about how unfair everything was.
I'm not saying that it always happens, but it does. I've been there,and I know it's a PITA to deal with. DM involvement is just to ensure all that is avoided before it begins. If players handled that part with maturity and good sportsmanship, there would never be any need for DM involvement. Sadly, that has never been the case. This isn't about specific players or situations, but usually always happens at some point.
I don't think lessening DM involvement is practical, really. But we can have better systems in place. Exile is one that I really never liked myself. It may have been good when the server was heavily populated, but now, if you're exiled, you mostly will be unable to do much of anything IG. I've seen that, too, which is why I push for more penal legionnaires.
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It's not exactly fun for DMs, either. The only reason DM involvement is even necessary is because lawmen PCs in the past, have shown OOC "teh win" mentality and crush any hope of crime ever happening, often with draconian and sometimes even blatantly illegal measures that ICly, would see them on the stand, too. Then there's the OOC complaints, the endless OOC statements, the adjudication and endless OOC snide remarks for weeks afterwards about how unfair everything was.
I'm not saying that it always happens, but it does. I've been there,and I know it's a PITA to deal with. DM involvement is just to ensure all that is avoided before it begins. If players handled that part with maturity and good sportsmanship, there would never be any need for DM involvement. Sadly, that has never been the case. This isn't about specific players or situations, but usually always happens at some point.
I don't think lessening DM involvement is practical, really. But we can have better systems in place. Exile is one that I really never liked myself. It may have been good when the server was heavily populated, but now, if you're exiled, you mostly will be unable to do much of anything IG. I've seen that, too, which is why I push for more penal legionnaires.
In regards to less DM involvement, I didn't mean the DM's should butt out, I just meant it should relate directly to IC and not necessarily be the go to action every time. If a guard is out of line, the NPC should step in. By less DM involvement I meant the players should be free to take a little initiative to take IC actions and face the consequences of those actions. A PC guard issues a fine against a particular character due to religious bias? The PC will then face the consequences. A PC starts Judge Dredding away all the PC criminal competition? He may end up on trial for murder. I only mean if the PC's have to write a report and send all statements and evidence up to an NPC to decide the outcome of every crime broken, it would make things dull for both the players and the DMs.
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Realistically in the setting if you get caught stabbing someone, the militia is just going to stick you in hole somewhere and forget about you; Cormyr really shouldn't be as litigious as modern societies. I know the 3 hour trial is a long standing tradition in CoA to give appearance of fairness but it has never been fun.
For the fun of the game I like Relonor's penal legion suggestions and for all crimes- I think it's a cool system. Bad guys forced to work for the city and power to the militia to kill them off if they don't- it still makes playing evil and getting caught fun. With a system for them getting off for time served or heroic deed done I think it is an awesome idea and from what I've seen in game it creates interesting interactions and characters. Under this system you could run a criminal organization lead by a dirty cop using his conscripted legionaries as henchmen, do the whole dirty dozen thing where you send criminals off on a suicide mission…
I think the militia should have the power to assign someone to the penal legion for a few days without much evidence or hassle and the only people who should get trials are those people who have the backing of a faction/noble/powerful NPC and in those cases I think it would be more interesting if those people were used as political capital. For example the militia catches a Thayan guard in an assassination attempt. The guard is then traded back to the Thayan embassy for money/goods/service or information. A Lord Lhal retainer could get caught spying on the Thayan embassy and she would have to make concessions to not have that agent turned over to Thay for punishment. It would make sense that come NPCs (and PCs) in the militia would have loyalties and sympathies for certain factions and tip the leaders of those factions off when one of their agents could be going to the chopping block and work a deal for them. It might be a little push for people to align themselves with factions and up the political intrigue side of things.
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I would say that DMs would only need to be involved at the outset for execution.
Anything else, including lengthy exile, can be oveturned later by a DM functioning as a superior.
For most lawman-offences, the criminal would likely not see a difference (except in case of shortening sentence/ecile/returning confiscations) and would certainly not have IG involvement with the DM superior. Things would be handled in the guard-forum by DMsuperior "you did wrong, change that sentence from perma-exile to legion or 3 weeks exile or something like that"As far as penal legion, having left a short time after it wast first instroduced, my understanding is it was permament until some amazing service was done. Instead, make it be for a certain number of IG service hours, or perhaps OOC weeks. I'd also suggest that to prevent it be an OOC vehicle for getting access to interesting quests, that when people are in penal legion, they gain zero xp.
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Really like Relonor's suggestions in regards to the penal legion, also for capital crimes I would suggest that the accused PC be given the option of completing a difficult task that does not necessarily entail survival. If they are successful than they are pardoned of all crimes if not well than that spares the need of a DM to oversee their execution.
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I created the Penal Legion with Kreagus Thune originally so that PCs were given a lifeline so that their character does not end. Little known fact: One of the people I put in the Penal Legion killed Kraegus Thune. This is the critical problem with the Penal Legion. When originally envisioned, they were tattooed, so that they could not avoid identification, and were supposed to be under a Geas Spell or some other form of control. This never materialized. The Tattoo part was also forgotten between V3 and V4.
Penal Legionnaires have very little actual control. They escape, murder, and so on, even in the Penal Legion. It sadly became closer to a get-out-of-jail free card than another form of execution.
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Going to just comment on this from my personal standpoint. I think the system, as it is, is fine. I think changes that relonar suggested regarding the penal legion are good. However, right now, in the current server climate, that the issue isn't 'good is stomping bad before they have a chance to tell a story' (that's happening, both within law enforcement factions and without, which is a problem in and of itself), it's that law enforcement PC's aren't held to high enough of a standard -
Being a law enforcement PC should be much like being a paladin - you are held to a certain standard of conduct. And quite frankly, being a law enforcement PC carries FAR MORE POWER than being a paladin. That power needs to be PROPERLY used, to harm bad (AND GOOD) guys when necessary and legitimate - likewise, the PCs with that power MUST BE HELD TO A HIGH STANDARD to ensure that that power is used in a fun, story progressing manner.
I'm all for corrupt guards and PDs. But I am a stickler in believing that these PCs SHOULD FACE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES for missteps. Quite frankly, Law enforcement is the, by far, STRONGEST FACTION in regards to political power- and if it is being misused (whether intentionally by a crooked PC or unintentionally) there should be severe consequences if caught.
What i see right now is alot of 'good' Law enforcement PCs protecting their 'good' buddies. And right now it seems to be being a law enforcement PC means you're essentially untouchable - (If a bad guy kills you, that's a execution sentence period. But you can do w/e questionable shit you want as a law enforcement PC right now and face minimal, if any, punishment). That's not the purpose of law enforcement and not what it should be doing. Law enforcement should not be protecting/letting go 'Good' because they are good. Their purpose should be to enforce LAW over anything else. If something doesn't fall in the LAW category, they should not be protecting it, but rather they should be prosecuting it.
If those issues were addressed I think law enforcement would be a lot funner for both bad and good PC's to interact with as well as solve the issue from a law enforcement PC standpoint.
Are trials boring? Maybe. I personally think they're fun. The question should be, 'why are people always demanding a trial'? Perhaps it's because they feel that a trial overseen by DMs is going to be fairer and have better treatment than the alternative outcomes if law enforcement PCs are allowed to choose judgement.
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I fully enjoyed the pit when I got to use it.
Just saying.
What it needs isn't done away with. What it needs is a bit more fluid scaling.
Personally I think pitting should still be the go-to punishment for criminals in Arabel.
Addendium: I also agree with Chomp. It might be because my experience right now is colored by the character I am currently playing, but there's no actual check on abuse of power in the PDs or Militias. It just doesn't exist. If the DMs are trying to curtail the excess, I'm not sure it's working. And I don't mind saying that it's not just the current run of PCs, it's been the run of PCs for a couple of months now.
This is a little beside the point of course, noting that here, but making it easier to dish out punishments also makes it that much easier to empower PCs who already have a great deal of setting power to further . . . er. . . power. . . ment. Things.
(Eagleguard and Shou are my fucking heros though I love you bros keep fighting)
My point is that I think if the ability of PD/Militia to imprison, incarcerate, or punish PCs goes up, the oversight should go up too.
Addendium II:
Something -else- I notice lately is that although the process seems to be working for filing reports and bringing them to bare, it doesn't seem as though the DMs want to run trials anymore.
Even brief trials can be really fun.
When Ebatus died, it was so painfully obvious that the DMs didn't want to host a trial or any sort of official handwaving that it hurt. Eb didn't complain, he loved the hell out of it, but it kind of disappointed me a lot that there didn't seem to be any ceremony to it.
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I think there is a certain appetite for such events, but it is not for everybody. It can get extremely long winded and become 3-5 hour horrors. We don't really have an adversarial system any more. The evidence is compiled and when it becomes strong enough, the accused is guilty by dint of evidence.
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That makes total sense to me, but recalling Eb's sentencing, we stood there and argued who had authority to do it for so long that we had to send for an NPC.
When that NPC arrived he shrugged and passed the ball back to us.
Like, okay I get that, but there isn't an apparent procedure here. Nobody knows what they're supposed to be doing anymore.
Even an "In accordance with the laws of Cormyr and on testimony of this person and this person, you are sentenced to death."
That sounds really simple but it's gotten really complex with the argument about who's got authority on who and who holds the sword and oh my should we send for the militia or the dragons or what.
My impression right now is that the militia PCs are swamped and the PD PCs don't keep paperwork. Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not in either faction, but this 'inefficiency' doesn't seem like an inefficiency to me, it seems like there's some procedure in place already and it's just not being utilized, along with some confusion about how trials are supposed to go and how much evidence is required for them.
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Please stop bringing in specific events and making this into something it's not. This isn't to bash the current system, shall we just stick with suggesting improvements rather what what we don't like?
Bad feelings can be vented in private.