Kill On Sight: Is it realy?
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Something that has come up countless times on IRC, and within the game is "If someone was to play Monster Race X, it would be pointless, because they would be killed the moment someone saw them in the city." (and yes, many many DM's have fallen into this trap. Now, the DMs get final word, so for the case of Arabel I may be wrong, but for a setting that truly feels alive, and populated by people, and not just "Storyline Archetype A" and "Basic Villain B" this is a truly flawed view.)
_**I am by no means telling you how to play your PCs. If you want to play a heartless sociopath that attacks and kills others without remorse? That is up to you. If your char has had bad experiences in the past that makes them blindly attack members of other races? That is your call. If they have such big trust issues they can't trust a lone goblin surrounded by humans to be able to work out its survival odds if it stabs someone? Your call.
This Thread is to bring attention to, and examine the responses of NPCs. Guard and Commoner alike.**
Well, lets think about this, would they really?
There are two groups that would be Kill On Sight for city guards.
Mindless Monsters: Creatures incapable of complex thoughts such as "Yes I can kill a squishy human, but ten squishy humans with swords can kill me." This group includes Wild Animals, Oozes, Giant insects, and any other creature of intelligence 3 or less. (In the case of Worgs or Winter Wolves or other sentient creatures that look like Mindless Monsters, they would probably be KOS until they spoke, at which point guards would back off.)
Evil Outsiders / Undead These creatures do not live. They exist only to kill. (Yes, there are exceptions some undead that can be peaceful, or even good aligned, but these are very rare, and for the most part those types will be indistinguishable from normal living people anyway so you would be unable to kill them on sight, and those that are not? Well most city Guards wouldn't even know they exist.) The likelihood of one of these creatures approaching a city on peaceful terms is practically 0, and the likelihood of a guard letting them in is actually 0.
A third group to consider are the Ultimate Bogeymonsters The ones used to scare badly behaved adventurers by their mothers. Beholders, Mind Flayers, Drow. Truly powerful and widely feared creatures who could easily lay waste to half the city and escape without a scratch. Now, these would not be Kill on Sight, but they would certainly be barred entry into the city, and if they refused to stop and tried to enter, the Guards would likely attack them.
But what about Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, Giants? Well. If they show up outside the city gates, running at full speed, waving weapons and with 50 other like minded tribe mates? Yeah, they are going to be Kill On Sight.
If one lone Ogre was to walk up to the city? These creatures are not stupid. (well ok, Ogres are a bit, and Trolls really are slow in the mind but even so…) They are capable of such simple calculations as "One Ogre Vs a few hundred thousand Humans = Dead Ogre." City Guards are even less stupid. They are well aware that this creature can do that equation. They are also stood on guard with their colleagues, who are surely friends, and some who have worked together extensively may even consider each other family. They are also aware that IF they pick a fight with that Ogre, it is likely to tear one or two of them apart before they bring it down. Even if they all survive, there is a chance of serious injury that would leave them unable to work, or at the very least some REALLY painful wounds in the short term.
No City Guard is going to pick a fight with a Non Hostile Sentient Creature (barring the above mentioned) unless they are ordered to. No one likes pain. No one wants to get their friends killed or injured, or killed and injured themselves. They have lives they cherish, and most will have familys that rely upon their wage to survive.
In Contrast, no single lone member of a sentient monster race, is going to attack a City, or once inside attack the people, because they are well aware they would not last long before they got swarmed under. They value life as well. (even if in most cases the only one they value is their own)
Commoners on the other hand? Well, they will fear the creatures, they will try to stay as far away as they can. In the case of the more powerful types (Giants, Ogres and the like) they may go inside their houses until they pass, in the case of less dangerous (Orcs, Goblins) simply keeping a few meters away, while the commoners know that the city guard will doubtless kill the creature if it attacks people, no one wants to be the people whose death triggers the event. Commoners know that the creatures will behave because they don't want to be killed by the guards, but that doesn't stop the fear.
Once permitted inside the city, it is unlikely that said "Monster" will walk around unobserved. City Guard Patrols will no doubt just "Happen" to be patrolling the areas it is in, just to keep an eye on it, just in case someone angers it enough to make it forget where it is and attack them, (or some idiot or drunk attacks it prompting innocent bystanders to get caught in the fight)
After a while one who visits repeatedly, and shows no sign of causing trouble will likely be given a small amount of trust and the guard will stop watching it, common folk will stop hiding from it, may even get within arms reach occasionally. (Of course, on the other hand, its only a limited amount of trust, and if that regular visitor happens to be around when someone gets murdered in the night? Guess who is top of most peoples suspect list?)
So. In Short. Why pick a fight with a non hostile, lone monster? Fighting hurts, and can lead to injuries and death that most common folk can not afford to pay clerics to fix. A Guard with only one arm, is not a guard any longer, and his family risk starving. A dead guard is dead. His colleagues have lost a friend. The one that caused the fight in the first place, is likely to be fired, or at the very least will have lost the trust of his surviving colleagues.
The Monster wont pick a fight for similar reasons. It isn't going to win, so why risk pain, injury and death?
This is basic knowledge, and reasoning that anyone and everyone on Toril will have. A lone "Monster" is no threat to a group of humans. Some of the larger ones may be a threat to smaller groups, in those cases, most of the time they will use the "Lets leave it alone and hope it leaves us alone" approach unless it is actively attacking. No one wants to be the one who got others killed because he jumped the gun. 90% of people would not want to live with that guilt, and the remaining 10% would not want to suffer the annoyance of being shunned and ostracised._ -
So. In Short. Why pick a fight with a non hostile, lone monster?
Because it's a monster?
What do you do when you see a non-hostile, lone roach in your kitchen?
You can let it go. Or you can squash it. Up to you. No one's going to even care.
Killing a monster, sentient or not, has pretty much the same emotional response from an average person (from indifference to mild satisfaction to "die, you freak!").As to your "no one wants to pick fights" arguement, it's wrong. There are lots of people who are okay with picking fights. That's why they become adventurers, guards, etc. in the first place.
On the contrary. I wish there was more hostility and racial tension on the server. I hate it when a ranger who eats ogres for breakfast suddenly stops to have a friendly chatter with one just because he knows he's possessed by a DM. Or elves (one of them a black archer) chatting with a drow and then letting him go. Really?
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So. In Short. Why pick a fight with a non hostile, lone monster?
Because it's a monster?
What do you do when you see a non-hostile, lone roach in your kitchen?
You can let it go. Or you can squash it. Up to you. No one's going to even care.Very different, for two reasons. A roach can not hurt you if you try to crush it, and a roach does not feel emotion.
You would certainly hesitate to attack a Tiger because it will hurt.
Of course there is no accurate comparison in the real world, because we lack other sentient creatures to compare ourselves with.
The nearest comparison would be those communities that live near dangerous animals, Lions, Tigers, Crocodiles. They leave these animals alone because hunting them is dangerous and gets people hurt, unless one starts hunting humans (becomes an active threat) they ignore them.
Now, I will grant you that empathy and guilt for killing a "monster" is less of a concern. (although more than most Players realise.) Guilt at getting your friend killed by starting a fight that wasn't needed, however. That is something much more concerning and powerful.
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Very different, for two reasons. A roach can not hurt you if you try to crush it, and a roach does not feel emotion.
You would certainly hesitate to attack a Tiger because it will hurt.
You're right. That's why I'd want a professional to shoot/sedate it and get rid of it.
That's what adventuring is about in rpgs.
@Hinty:Of course there is no accurate comparison in the real world, because we lack other sentient creatures to compare ourselves with.
The nearest comparison would be those communities that live near dangerous animals, Lions, Tigers, Crocodiles. They leave these animals alone because hunting them is dangerous and gets people hurt, unless one starts hunting humans (becomes an active threat) they ignore them.
I agree, some barbaric tribe probably could get close with some tribe of monsters and treat them as equals or just learn to coexist in the same area.
But an average city dweller won't react to a monster unchained and within the city walls calmly.
@Hinty:Now, I will grant you that empathy and guilt for killing a "monster" is less of a concern. (although more than most Players realise.) Guilt at getting your friend killed by starting a fight that wasn't needed, however. That is something much more concerning and powerful.
I really don't believe that a monster who looks dangerous would be every able to pass the gates and enter the city.
I can see zero reasons to take this risk. -
Because attacking it is a bigger risk?
Let it enter, let it trade, let it go. It is not so god damn stupid as to throw its life away trying to kill humans when it is outnumbered 30,000 to 1. No one is that stupid and the people of the city know it.
If you attack it. Then almost certainly people will die.
If you let it be, almost certainly no one gets hurt.
What kind of idiot would attack?
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Or perhaps it would be startled, upset or generally made angry by something it had never encountered before and the resulting rampage (even if it is fuelled by fear) would result in loss of innocent lives both to the scared/enraged monster and also under the press of terrified commoners trying to flee it.
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What kind of idiot would attack?
I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble understanding your point.
If something alien and potentially dangerous attempts to enter the city, you just… let it in because you don't want any trouble? No matter if it's an ogre, a drow, a squad of armed goblins?
Then why have gate guards at all? -
I think you will find that I covered all three of those in the original post, (Yes, no and no for clarification)
They are not THAT alien. They are just generally less bothered with Morals than the "goodly" races.
Yes there is a small chance that something may spook them enough that they stop caring about the fact that attacking will result in their death, that is why the guards would watch them.
However, a slim chance of death and injury that they are ready for and will be able to stop, is Infinitely better than guaranteed death and injury if they attack it.
Oh and for the record. "Its a monster, Kill it!" leads to a very boring and repetitive game play. If you kill anything even vaguely monstrous on sight every time you meet it, same thing over and over and over.
Communication, and reluctant trust can lead to so SO many more stories.
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I think the issue here is that you have an opinion and you assume it is universally correct.
If you were that guard, maybe you'd want to negotiate with an ogre. But if I was that gate guard, I would sound the alarm and pincushion any ogre that approaches the walls. And I would be in the right, no one would say what I did was wrong.
See my point?
I guess if you want people be more accepting towards monsters in the city, you have to work with characters, not players. -
So, you wouldn't give a toss that doing that would result in your friends guarding the gate with you getting killed?
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I would assume that it is actually our duty as guards to risk our lives to combat all threats to city's safety.
Honestly, if I let an ogre in and it kills some innocent dudes inside, would I be like "well, at least they weren't my buddies"?
If I was a guard's commander, I'd hang such a guard immediately.Why would I think an ogre might cause trouble, you may ask? Because ogres are cannibals, for gods sake.
There is a reason why dogs and cats are allowed in and wolves and lions are not.I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just pointing out that there are other completely legit points of view. And you're just implying that those who do not share your opinion are idiots. Even if they are, they have their reasons and again you'll need to convince them IC.
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Again, what Ogre would cause a fight in the middle of a city of humans that outnumber it 30,000 to 1?
Well i grant population is probably a little lower these days. 10,000 to 1? those are much better odds, maybe the Ogre will decide to snack on a few people because Surely it can win that fight.
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I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just pointing out that there are other completely legit points of view.
You think ogres are reasonable and pick their fights. I think ogres are unpredictable killing machines.
This is a matter of opinion and as it stands most Arabellans don't want monsters anywhere near them. If you want to force your opinion on the majority of Arabel's population, do it in character. Right? -
well to me.. goblins, orcs and ogres are monster, in the sense they bring evil, cruelty to the world, goblins werent createdd to be seen as possible sentient being with good nature, but like ill monster that haunt our dreams wage countless wars for their ill pleasures.. these are to be seen evil, and as monster, changing the nature of a monster build in a sense to be taken as a ennemies to suit your need of wanting to play a goblins is a bit out of chart … for me personanly...
monster like these shoudl always be considered our ennemies,... also... we live in a modern world with much tolerance... well not so much when you look in middle east and even in ireland now a day... so again no human city should ever let race like goblinnoid walk among their street... in a medieval setting, openess and tolerance should be brought down a big notch... heck elves were being often targeted, now imagine a goblins walking the city, and not being targeted.. that would be trully silly to me.
but again, just a my personal though put on a fly and threw away out here with haste :P
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If the server were to start cuddling monsters like ogres, orcs, minotaurs etc, i'd leave and not even consider coming back. If anything, we need MORE racial intolerance. The general populace of the realms are xenophobic and intolerant. Whichever guard would let an ogre into the city would likely see both his job removed and possibly face hanging if the monster went on some sort of rampage.
These -are- cruel and proven monsters and would face an arrow to the face the second they came within range!
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Here's my opinion on the matter.
Bringing in real world ethics to DnD does not end well. Adventurers become, for the most part, sociopaths who should be thrown in prison for slaughtering hundreds of sentient people; very few people end up being truly "good"; etc.
DnD has a clear axis of good and evil. In other words, there are certain absolute moral truths in DnD with regards to good and evil. Likewise, you have races of which the vast majority are unquestionably, one might even say irredeemably, evil. Orcs are the biggest example. Remember how in the Lord of the Rings the protagonists, dwarves, elves, men of Gondor and Rohan alike slaughter the poor saps indiscriminately? Pretty much how it works in DnD: "the only good orc is a dead orc" is a sentiment shared by many, including a few deities. Corellon Larethian is the Chaotic Good patriarch of the Seldarine, yet his feud with Gruumsh, the Chaotic Evil patriarch of the orcan pantheon, is legendary. Elves have a deep hatred of orcs, and we're talking about one of the nicest overall races in all of DnD (minus the Drow, which is a whole different can of worms).
All of this applies to the Forgotten Realms, as well. It relies heavily on the presence of such absolute moral truths.
Basically, what I'm getting at is this: the "nature vs. nurture" argument can be applied to a certain degree in DnD. It's not impossible; look at half-orcs, half-drow, and tieflings as examples of such (there's a reason none of these races are innately evil, but rather tend to lean towards such). The thing is, when you see an adult orc, it's more than reasonable to assume that it was raised in an orcan tribe, and as such would happily slaughter you, your wife, your children, and pretty much raze everything in its path to ashes in bloodlust. This is why no one will gasp and feint in shock when your local Wyrmguard spots a lone orc approaching from the East, then simply opts to send an arrow through its head. It's an almost natural response. The same applies to goblins, gnolls, hobgoblins, and their ilk. Demons and devils even more so.
The final nail in the coffin: even Drizzt, by far one of Faerun's greatest pansies, has absolutely no qualms tearing through goblins, orcs, and the like; no philosophizing about "I am robbing these creatures of their redemption," rather "I wonder how many I can kill in the next ten seconds?"
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If the server were to start cuddling monsters like ogres, orcs, minotaurs etc, i'd leave and not even consider coming back. If anything, we need MORE racial intolerance. The general populace of the realms are xenophobic and intolerant. Whichever guard would let an ogre into the city would likely see both his job removed and possibly face hanging if the monster went on some sort of rampage.
These -are- cruel and proven monsters and would face an arrow to the face the second they came within range!
Seconded. It doesn't matter what the monster would do, what matters is what a human guardsman sworn to defend his city would do.
Probably kill them.
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AWESOME answer from Nuclear winter, i cant agree more.
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All the answers go to one extreme or another. The most likely response is the guards stop it, do not it enter, and ask what it wants. Ant discussion , such as it representing sin ogre tribe, would take place OUTSIDE.
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I'd rather be banned than not speak my mind on a topic like this-
You've got to be kidding me!
The entire point of playing a monster is the challenge and the struggle and the hardship.
If you as players and as DMs do not attack on sight even if it makes sense for your PC or NPC to do so you are depriving the player of the monster of a huge amount of what makes playing a monster fun: the sheer struggle for survival.
It would infuriate me to a level you can not even imagine if I could apply for a kobold and walk around Arabel without players trying to kill me on sight, no questions asked. What's the point?
My god: the entire point of being a monster is painting a huge target on your back because you love the rush of adrenaline and because you love being something different and wild. If you don't cater to this by being suitably hateful, realistic characters and all spontaneously decide to form the People for Ethical Treatment of Monsters group then good riddance; you don't deserve cool, well-played monsters.
OP sounds like he just lost his first monstrous PC. Ah, I remember my first. I was mad for days.