On Escalation
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So! Howdy folks, here is a bit of food for thought I decided to part with today.
Escalation. Let me set of scenario.
Tough guy Joe is an argument with Pansy Douche Bob, Pansy Douche Bob calls Tough Guy Joe a pansy. Tough Guy Joe responds by punching Pansy Douche Bob in the face.
Pansy Douche Bob responds by swinging a punch back. A brawl ensues, no one is using potions or supplies- it's a tough guy match and no one really cares who wins or looses since their both drunk.
Suddenly, Ninny Elf Meb suddenly begins drinking a punch of potion, takes out her greatsword, and smacks Tough Guy Joe until he's subdued. Then Ninny Elf subdues Pansy Douche Bob.
Ninny Elf Meb wasn't even part of the confrontation.
Anyone else see something wrong here?
Let me set up another scenario
Ninny Elf Meb gets punched in the face by Pansy Douche Bob, her best friend Treehugger Elf Lowen suddenly casts Hold Monster and Flame Strike on Pansy Douchebob. She then proceeds to buff along with Pansy Elf Meb to subdue and take all of Pansy Douche Bob's stuff.
See what I am trying to get at?
One more time.
Tough Guy Joe and Pansy Douche Bob are going at it and chasing each other all over the map and burning potions and supplies in order to beat the other guy. Someone makes a sending about Tough Guy Joe robbing folks on the road during Mid-PvP, obligatory gank squad shows up and suddenly Tough Guy Joe gets FDed by the crowd howling for his blood.
Of course, these are oversimplified situations. It's to demonstrate how quickly a situation can escalate when there was really no need for it to. A hostile punch in the face suddenly turns into every PC in the area casting spells, downing potions, etc… when there is really no need for it.
We're in a society where violence is an everyday occurrence. Children are beaten, people find dead bodies on the road, and urine stains the alleyway in the slums. The Guildhall is filled with heavily armored, VIOLENT adventurers who are out to make a living by pillaging and plundering people.
What, pray tell, is to them, a broken nose, that can be healed with a simple cure serious wounds potion?
Keep things in perspective people. When a heavily armored figured stows their weapon and instead uses their fist, it probably means they aren't looking to actually HURT the other person grievously. Of course, accidents happen, but keep an eye on the situation, and think, "Does this really require me to buff up and draw my weapon, or will it diffuse on its own volition?" Or better yet, "Does this concern me?"
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I'd rather you let others decide for themselves what concerns their characters and what doesn't. And how to react IC to random brawls.
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But if they don't subdue you, they can't win.
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Petey, troll posts are not intended for this discussion. This game is not about winning, it's about telling a story.
Direfish, I understand that PCs should RP as they please, but I find it quite ridiculous that the moment a PC punches another, having taken the time to posture and bluff and role play, the entire area of PCs goes into an uproar and decides to intervene in a clearly non-lethal fight! It's a pointless act and it only serves to enhance the status quo and punish players who want to play a violent character without being a murderous psychopath.
I very much think OOC mentality is involved with escalation. Hence why I address it in an OOC manner.
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What the op said.
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I was trying to see if things got excalated. To prove a point. :P Sorry for the derailment though. I get snarky sometimes.
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@SpiffyHas:
Direfish, I understand that PCs should RP as they please, but I find it quite ridiculous that the moment a PC punches another, having taken the time to posture and bluff and role play, the entire area of PCs goes into an uproar and decides to intervene in a clearly non-lethal fight! It's a pointless act and it only serves to enhance the status quo and punish players who want to play a violent character without being a murderous psychopath.
I very much think OOC mentality is involved with escalation. Hence why I address it in an OOC manner.
Spiffy, not to mention how patronizing your OP sounded, as far as i understand it boils down to "When Tough Guy Joe beats up Pansy Douche Bob, everyone else should better stay out of it because that shouldn't even concern them."
I don't agree with that. If my character is a part of the group when the conflict develops and if he feels like leaping into the brawl (whether to stop or aggravate it), he's perfectly entitled to participate.
You can't expect everyone IG will play along with your OOC plans. -
Well, I think if it was just a fist fight, it seems silly to pull weapons on it. It's two drunks fist fighting eachother. If you join in, join in unarmed.
Otherwise it's just people wanting to win.
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Petey, are you really trying to narrow down the entire OP's point to one hypothetical example?
Of course, every instance should be judged on a case by case scenario. If Spiffy's character got himself involved into an obviously non-lethal fist fight in a tavern and some random person walked in and subdued him with a sword, he should take it to DMs.
But we're talking about being involved in such a conflict in general. Spiffy suggests that violent characters are just being punished for being violent to other people and trying to beat them up. And that it's not IG consequences of IG behavior but rather OOC mentality. That's what i can't agree with. -
I have shaken the magic 8 ball again, and it says two things;
Don't tell others how to play their characters.
No one likes being bumrushed when they are trying to build something, so try not to be so quick to jump to mechanics over an argument and punch.
As always, any other questions and I will shake again.
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Er, no, I wasn't, direfish. Was just referring to the one.
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If it's IC for your character to join in. And I mean /really/ IC not just OOOooooOO I want to fight too then by all means jump on in, however, if its two random strangers and you have no stake in the fight and you just join for the OOC of wanting to be a part of it then that's just dumb. I think that is the point he is trying to make is to just stay in character. I see alot of this especially if there is a DM possessed PC, the event might have nothing to do with the PC's in the general area but they want to be part of the event so they just pick a side, draw weapons, and jump in. I think the main point is just to stay in character and don't break it just for a chance to hop in an event or brawl.
The only time I can think of that I joined a fight that didn't really concern me was when two people agreed to a duel but one random person swore that if PC-A drew steel and attacked his friend, PC-B, then he would attack him. Considering a honorable duel was agreed to in front of my character and then the third party jumped in to beat down PC-A, my character felt it dishonorable to allow such treachery to continue so he engaged PC-C. And then when PC-C turned on me, a massive breakdown happened and tons of PC's were attacking him. I can see how things start to escalate but for the most part I don't think any out of character fights took place in my example and everything was completely IC even though it escalated.
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It's only natural to take sides. When a fight breaks out on a campus or school, I noticed how most people immediately moved behind the candidate they were supporting in the brawl. It's human nature and it's understandable.
Direfish, I apologize if I come off as patronizing, my post was intended to sound humorous and reflect the absurdity of the situation on how most situations escalate. Yes, people have differences of opinion, philosophies, etc…that might want to provoke their involvement. This is understandable and quite honestly intended for the discussion.
. I am not telling anyone how to role play there character, I am giving them advise- "Keep in mind what your character would do- and not what looks like a cheap opportunity to jump in and get randomly involved." I suppose if two drunkards are brawling the tavern, the law or a concerned individual would try and break it up- but would these people honestly draw weapons to solve the problem? These a sharp edged weapons and the subdual/beatdown/sparring modes are merely OOC courtesies for players so they can feel the battle adrenaline without killing one another unless they absolutely mean it. They'd keep it to emotes or fists and if the players involved are in good sporting, they would respond accordingly instead of ignoring the individuals.
Latoksinned brings up a legitimate escalation.
What I am trying to prevent here is a minor incident becoming a violent uproar where a PC can possibly loose his life, supplies, get randomly looted by individuals who are merely preying on the dead, and more. Lighthearted incidents like the tavern brawl between two rivals are intended for the purposes of entertaining the server as a whole and largely harmless to anyone else. It's in your own self-interest, battles are a chaotic, often dangerous thing to take apart of, with death an ever-possible result, and to enter a fray where your PC has no stake in the victory of another or his gains for choosing a winning side would vastly outweigh what he'd loose, chances are- he'd stay out of it out of a sense of common sense and self-preservation. Adventurers are people as well, albeit, tending to lean toward psychotic and sociopathic tendencies.
But ultimately, play your character, have fun- but keep in mind, "Do I really need to draw my weapon over this?" It should be pretty obvious.
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Spiffy, I understand what you are trying to say but I think you are missing something as well. One character attacking another character is one character attacking another character. As the player you may have intended for it only to be a harmless tavern brawl with minimum consequences, but that is no garuntee that the other players / characters around feel the same way. Actions have consequences, when you attack another character you are inherently running a risk that things will be escalated. If you are unwilling to deal with that escalation then keep things non-violent or organize a duel of some type. Also, remember that from a mechanics standpoint the person who drinks potions / buffs usually wins. As a result if a melee breaks out then someone is most likely going to buff up, from fear of another buffing and them dying if nothing else. Finally, the concept of jumping in on one side or the other is a factor of online NwN servers (have not played on one yet where it doesnt happen). Its a good reason not to engage in PvP in public areas unless your fully prepared for it.
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I find myself agreeing with the original post.. Its not about telling people how to play their characters its about asking them to think a little bit before they act when seeing something that is pretty commonplace here and now let alone in the game setting.
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I think what you're saying would be valid, Axiom, if it was one of the characters who was attacked that had escalated things. From my perspective, if someone comes across a clearly non-lethal fistfight and decides that the appropriate thing to do is full-buff, draw their weapon and lay the smack-down on whoever looks the most shady, then that person has blown it.
I also call shenanigans on the idea that PVP needs to take place in some kind of duel (or laboratory) in order to be free of OOC drama.
And yes… buffing does tend to win fights. That doesn't mean that you need to buff when you decide to lay the smack down on those two unarmed men fighting. Full buffing in that situation, imo, shows that you're 'in it for the win', as Petey was alleging.
I have a hard time imagining the PC for whom it would be IC to intervene in a fistfight by drinking a shitload of potions and running in, wildly swinging his greatsword. A Garagosian, maybe.
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In PnP, if you try to subdue someone with your weapons, don't you take a penalty to your attack rolls because you're trying to "hold back" and use the flat of your blade or something? It would be cool if that happened here. Of course, although that would be great for brawls, it would ratchet up more serious PvP because the one who "holds back" and doesn't FD will be at a disadvantage. Oh well.
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I honestly wish subdual damage was restricted to certain weapon types, like clubs and slings. That'd remove a lot of ambiguity from PVP situations, make it so that people can't use their +2 Acidic Greatswords to knock people unconscious, and generally be more realistic.
And also, then those people who jumped in would all have to be taken in for questioning. For murder.
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Regardless, any attack with a weapon should be looked at by law enforcement as done with intent to kill, and the attacker should be punished accordingly, but I guess that's up to the individual guard character.
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Yeahcrhis I think you missed my point in regards to duels. If you dont want other characters involving themselves in a brawl, hold the brawl in a duel format. From what I have seen of the server people rarely if ever get involved in them beyond watching, so you dont have the issue of a mass melee breaking out (as long as both sides agree to all terms ect). If you dont, there is a chance other characters will jump. There isnt anything really OOC about that, its just players reacting to a situation as they believe their character would. As for the escalation point, I guess we will have to disagree on that. From my perspective we are for the most part playing characters accustomed to violence on an almost daily level and whom are usually carrying powerful weapons (compared to fists) of one kind or another. I dont see it as unreasonable that when faced with a violent encounter they will reach for them if they believe it is needed. If the player does decide to go all in, it is only reasonable that a character would do so in the most effective manner that is in character for them. My two cents on it.
I think the main point to take away from this is that if you are playing a character that starts a brawl there is a wide range of opinions on the server about the correct response. So its probably a good idea to prepare yourself as a player for the possibility that another character will intervene at full strength (buff / weapon / ect). If you want to avoid that, as a player, we have the IG mechanic of the dueling areas in most of the taverns.