On the topic of Law.
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The laws of Arabel have, over the history of the server, been far too defined and strict, but over the last few years they have taken this even further.
The era represented by the setting was not a place of intricate and carefully written laws, in which every scenario and posibility was sketched out. If only because those enforcing it would have been unable to read half the words involved, if that.
Law should be far simpler.No Theft. No Murder. No Kindap. No Assault. No Vandalism.
The desision of what does, or does not constitute one of the listed crimes, and who is or is not guilty of comiting them, should be left up to the decision of the Law Enforcer that responds.
A guard who abuses the system, or who cocks up, should be fired when enough complaints reach his superiors. (if they feel the complaints are justified.)
Nobles (by virtue of the fact they can, through political weight, see to it guards are fired, or their families are ejected from their homes etc,) should be largely immune to law, unless the guards have enough to ensure the Noble looses his political clout and thus can not harm them of course.THIS is how the cities laws should be delt with.
Law Enforcement should be down to whatever group can field enough people to police the city. (Remember, this takes many hundreds of people, all of whom need wages, and equipment, and guard houses, and jails…. it is not in anyway cheep, and fines levied are unlikely to come close to paying for it all. Mantaining a City Guard is something limited to the most powerful Noble Houses, Temples or Merchant Princes. Normaly groups comprising of multiple parties.)
Racial laws should be more or less NON EXISTANT.
Many people will treat the "evil races" or "monster races" with a live and let live atitude (in small numbers) those who have an ingraned hatred or mistrust of them will consider a law pointless because of the inevitability of them comiting a crime anyway ("Why make a special law outlawing Tieflings so they can leave and go somewhere else? At some point they will slip up and sucumb to their nature and then we can hang them. One less teif.")
An Orc should be subject to the same law as a Human, an Ogre, a Dragon or a pixie. So called "monster races" (A OOC term for races in the monster manual, NOT an IC term.) are not all rampaging brutes who mindlessly kill any human they see. Orc tribes will often trade with neighboring human tribes as often as they will raid them. Just like any human barbarian tribe of the same developmental level would do. Look at the Vikings for gods sake. They raided and pillaged all over the place, BUT they also had a trade network that spaned from India to north america. Or the various tribes in africa who would hapily trade with their neighbours for years, and then sudenly raid for slaves and goods when the mood took them. Or herdsman tribes around the world where raiding your neighbours herd was practicaly a regular event, treated almost like a sporting event.
Furthermore, many solitary members of monster races will leave their tribes and make their way in the world as mercinaries, guarding caravans, joining armies, etc. They may be mistrusted, they may be the first people blamed if a crime is comited, BUT they come under the same law as everyone else.
You do not NEED a law that says "Orcs are not protected" because if an Orc comes into the city and causes trouble, you can arrest and hang him just like you would any human. And if he doesn't cause trouble, well, thats one more person bringing trade into your city. Bonus.
Sure, if Orcs or Goblins or Ogres were to come in droves things would be diferent, but a small population is not a problem. Frankly most people would not even think of makeing special laws for diferent races, if an Orc comes in and starts killing people he gets hung for murder. Problem solved. (Demons and other Evil Outsiders being an obvious exception. They are pure evil wanting only to enslave or kill you all in your sleep, they must be killed on sight. Preferably by adventurers, your average guard wouldn't stand a chance. >.>)
Don't forget that the Forgoten Relms Campaign Setting includes within its pages the Stats and background of a TROLL that walks around Amn (one of the more civilised areas of Toril) working as a mercinary, guarding caravans and the like. He is not kicked out of cities, nor is he attacked by any and all humans on sight.
Do not forget Thesk. A City that has a very sizable orc population, whos City Guards comprise a significant number of Orcs and Half Orcs. The Zhents marched an army east alongside Cormyrs Purple Dragons and others to fight off the Tuigan Horde, and when they returned to the moonsea they left many of their Orc soldiers behind. The people of Thesk were so glad to have been saved from the rampaging horde that they welcomed the orcs in, and the orcs have since settled in well, mixing with the humans and other races.
Monster Races are not mindless brutes. They are capable of thought, they are capable of trade, of negotiation, they are capable of living in peace. They are not ALL evil. Most of them are, very few of them are ever likely to be good aligned, but that does not meen that a significant number of them can be, and are neutral. Also do not forget. Almost a third of the humans in Arabel are likely to be evil. Does not mean they can not live in peace and quiet with their neighbours.
The reaction of an average human who encounters a lone orc upon the road should be one of wary aprehension sure. Should he suspect an Ambush? Sure, Should he expect the orc to attack him? Quite posible, but it is also posible that the orc will want to trade with him. Killing the orc in cold blood would still be veiwed by most people as murder. Sure, people are more likely to beleive it was in self defence if they did not witness it, and they may not punish you as much as they might for another race. If you did it out in the wilderness they might not punish you at all. But they will remember that you killed in cold blood all the same. After all, if you killed an orc without any provocation, what might you do to them if you take an insult from something they say one day?
Sure in the case of Orcs or Goblins around arabel, you might get a little more leeway, but if an Orc was to enter the city, talk and trade with people peacefully and not so much as look at someone wrong and then an adventurer was to come and kill it in the street. You can expect that would not be celebrated. They might not string him up for murder, but he would at the very least get in trouble for desturbing the peace, maybe assault, and he would find most people in the city avoiding him as much as they could.
Monster Races may not be Gnomes, Halflings, Dwarfs, Elves, or Humans. but they are still people.
I don't expect them to be treated as equals (far from it) nor do I expect people to run around hugging them, BUT the server has taken a shift far far FAR too far in the oposite direction. I know that the AI is limited and that when they are not DM controled all they can to is charge and attack, but that is the limitation of the game engine. The same is true of human bandits after all.
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I do agree that the existance of the Lawbook is quite unnecessary and doesn't really add to the setting whatsoever, infact, the Arabel (and by extension the Cormyr) that is depicted in CoA feels more "tolkein-esque" in some places whilst being plagued with a multitude of anachronisms in others. (warrants, loopholes ect.)
I still feel like that certain arthurian element that CoA's Arabel had in terms of Law and Nobility was completely lost when the Pheonix Legion was created. I believe V5 should not only wipe the vaults but also the forums, with a completely new set of topics detailing the attitudes of CoA's setting aswell any relevant campaign information because at the moment, the way it feels to me is ironically enough how I feel about the Forgotten Realms campaign in general; an organized mess.
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I disagree with the original post. I'm also not sure who this is addressed to.
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The server as a whole. It is a response to the general atmosphere and attitudes of the community.
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As far as im concerned the purpose of the lawbook is to inform the reader exactly who is in charge, rather than provide an exhaustive list of crimes and punishments. Thats what I read from it anyway.
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I think there are a couple of points that need to be considered when looking at topics such as law / race and how they apply to characters. First, lets look at the concept of the legal code itself. The medieval legal code was fairly complex, especially in the later medieval ages (if it was fully enforced or not is another matter). But even more importantly lets consider how a legal code applies to the server. You have a lot of people running around either enforcing or interacting with the legal system. If the -players- involved do not understand the OOC mechanics of the legal system then the player can become quite frustrated. How the characters interprets those law codes are of course an entirely IC matter, however having a clear OOC understanding of the legal code is important. If nothing else, the player needs to clearly understand OOCly the implied consequences of any action they determine are IC for their character.
Second, lets look at the concept of race. I frankly dont really like how some of the races are treated in FR lore. You have races that are evil incarnate that are somehow accepted on an individual level in civilized society. The closet example I could come up with in the modern world is a Somali pirate being welcomed in the middle of a major city in Europe / Asia / America while still acting like a Somali pirate. More importantly consider how these monster races affect the server. From a mechanical standpoint a lot of those application races have extreme benefits applied to them that are especially potent in a lowish magic / low level setting like ours. Sure they require an application, but also making them a bit more difficult to play (not welcome or not covered by the laws of the city) is not really improper in my opinion. From a story standpoint (even more important) you have a city that has often been forced to fight tooth and nail against a lot of those monster races in one form or another. Or you have a city full of people who -know- those monster races are insanely powerful compared to the average human / dwarf and therefore are understandable afraid of them. As such it is not unreasonable at all for the city to outlaw those races entering into the city and remove any protection on them, especially in a Middle Ages type setting. My two cents.
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I really think that all lawmaking should happen IG. When you have to write a code of laws in IG notebook, you certainly make it as short and simple as possible.
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@Broken:
]I still feel like that certain arthurian element that CoA's Arabel had in terms of Law and Nobility was completely lost when the Pheonix Legion was created. I believe V5 should not only wipe the vaults but also the forums, with a completely new set of topics detailing the attitudes of CoA's setting aswell any relevant campaign information because at the moment, the way it feels to me is ironically enough how I feel about the Forgotten Realms campaign in general; an organized mess.
Ditto.
Regarding the lawbook and laws, I think they are more needed because DMs arent there posessing the NPCs all the time, nor are PC "watch" around all the time. Having written laws, including the concept of witnesses testifying, while perhaps anacronistic, serves to extend the reach of the authority when they're "not there" -
The guy in charge didn't like elves and monster races, so he outlawed them. What's the problem with that? He says it's a monster, then by jove it's a monster.
If you don't like it do something about it IC.
The rest of the stuff I've not read, because it looks massively convoluted and boring. Sorry.
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Kresswell = dictatorship (sort of) so this dude does whatever he says he does, whatever he does is law. whether the idiots below him liked it or not.
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Basicly the lawbook always been a ic thing, full of imperfections and biases. Personally I love all the different law books we've had over the years and how being in a certain area of the server gave you legal rights you wouldn't have in others.
The fact laws can be changed and altered can also give characters goals and objectives to work towards, be it just legal reform for your Tyrran or "licensed" necromancy for your necromancer.
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This sounds like a character concept; wants simpler laws, racial tolerance and to return the noble rights taken away by the Phoenix Legion.
There are things like these going IG at the moment.
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I would certainly promote a direction whereby laws became much more medaeval in context and much less Litigious and precise. Bringing back the rule of the nobility would be a great thing to attempt IG. As long as you include the Droit de Seignure!
I do disagree with the OP on the aspect of Monster Races. I cannot see a Noble overseeing a court treating an orc the same as a human. He'd not even see the Orc case and expect the orc to be slaughtered as he would a ravening bugblatter beast or troll or beholder. Racism was rife in medaeval times and we can build such into our setting using elven, dwarven, halfling and half-orc racism. Going wider afield towards teifling and assimar seems appropriate. People fear what they don't understand and in a medaeval setting most commoners just don't understand. Tollerance is a 21st Century concept, excluding certain religious teachings.
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I am not trying to change things IC, but OOC. The problems with these issues is because of character ideas yes, BUT they are driven by PLAYER opinions, misunderstandings, and comunity trends. I can campaign all I want IC for Orc Rights, (Not that I want to at all.) but I would never get anywhere while the PLAYERS are all convinced that everyone on faerun thinks of orcs as mindless killing machines that must be killed on sight.
he reason we have such complex and modern laws are because that is what the PLAYERS think of, when they think of law, and so their characters think the same and so on….. If the players come to understand how law would fit more comfortably in the setting, then their characters can, and so on.
I am also NOT saying in any way WHAT SO EVER that monster races should be treated as equals. They shouldn't, and Orc who comits a crime would be lucky if he lasted long enough for the Guards to get to him before the lynch mob.
What I am saying is that yes, Racism fits, and yes racism is an important part of the setting BUT we have gone too far. There are degrees of racism in between "Oh look an orc, lets hug it and be friends" and "Oh look Kobold Babies, lets kill them they are monsters." or "Oh look, a lone orc making no hostile moves at all and saying hello, KILL IT!" and the setting floats somewhere in between them.
Monster Races inside arabel would be watched closely, suspected of any and every crime that happens near them, given bad prices, shunned from all but the lowest dives, and unlikely to stay in the city for long before decideing to move on. BUT they would be in the city.
Yes, I realise that Kreswells laws were because of the man in charge and his extreem veiws, BUT racial laws have been a staple part of the server for years now, ever since the rebelion there have been laws about what races are and are not "protected" Laws that are, more or less redundant anyway.
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I don't agree with the statement "everyone misunderstands what everyone would do".
I prefer a setting hostile to monster races, personally. This is an online game and, like it's been demonstrated on many other NWN servers, inclusion of any kind of exoticness leads to a potential floodgate. We already have monsters residing in the city, and my character back then was trying to get them kicked out so I can relate; however my feeling at the time was kind of the opposite, that DMs were portraying the populace as too tolerant, and that PCs were doing the same.
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I think that's silly. Orcs, drow, stuff like that should be shot before they even reached the city walls unless there was an EXTREMELY good reason they wouldn't be. That's my opinion of how they'd be viewed in a fantasy land.
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Ogres and demons as well… both have slaughtered many arabel citizens only natural they hate them
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What bane said.
That is my view also and i think the more reactions to monster that are hostile lets kill them the better,when caek became a dm he approached my party just after a fight with a talking goblin the hin rogue shot it,the rest of the group were like why did you do that it wanted to talk?
The hin said "it was a goblin".
The halfings players reaction was the in character one so ive always remembered that when i have to interact with monster races. -
Not every fantasy setting is the same.
The forgotten realms has a well established history of utilizing shades of grey to make more indepth and varied stories.
Its an orc. Kill it. Is fine for hack and slash. Roleplay is far better suited to a setting that is more flexible.
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In Arabel, Orcs and goblins are seen as monsters that needs to be killed due to the numerous attack they have done on the city. Always been like that. In the Arabel settings, they are seen as monsters and nothing more. Same for drows. I recall in V3 you could kill a drow, orc or goblin on the street without consequences. Heck we had slum invasions made by orcs. (that was suck a crazy quest)