New Player Perspective
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I played on COA in its earlier days, but didn't get far. I remembered the server; and remembered enjoying how it was being developed. So when I was getting burned out on my usual server, I thought I'd try out COA again. I didn't get far again–or maybe just yet, who knows. I've read many ideas of problems on COA, though frankly it seems to be doing well for a 15-year-old game! I haven't read every idea, as by now these forums are the length of a bible. What briefly follows is my perspective as a new player to COA.
Making a legal character on COA proved to be impossible the first several days. While being able to log-on without haks surely makes joining for new players easy, the plethora of information on what is legal or restricted is overwhelming. My first four toons, I did not even see the head-changer or deity changer on the Road to Arabel. I went to the forums, and finding this information was difficult. Even by my fifth toon I had difficulty finding information on this site, or its companion COA wiki. Now, after four broken toons, three dead toons, and the same amount of hours I can level a toon to epic on my usual server, I can safely say I know where to look to make a legal toon; however, making one would still require a lot of my time.
Maybe some will just make a plain fighter when they join or have the patience to read for hours the forums; regardless, COA must be littered with the dead of newbie toons! I spent hours role-playing all of my toons, before I discovered they were broken, or just simply died at 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level. My highest, 4th level, died during a DM-event I knew nothing about and could get no information about, but of course wanted to participate in. But even that is not too unsimilar to just joining a simple quest and party. Every quest, some I repeatedly was forced to do having to make new toons, I was being led around by another--I assume veteran player--toon that seemed to know exactly where to go, how to do things, and was either blocking doorways so I couldn't participate or fleeing a battle they knew was tough to regroup, without a word edgewise IC. My latest toon died at 3rd lvl to a Raksasha as the entire party fled through the doorway to rebuff, heal, etc. and I was dead before I knew what was happening, nobody in sight. Prior to that little fight, I was unable to even swing at anything with my tanking toon.
Finally, after the last week since joining, and all the hours trying to have fun, RP, and level just a single toon a little, I finally came to realize: there is nothing beyond 12th-13th level. I also learned that COA systemically wipes their character vaults, which isn't as much a travesty as the maximum server level, if it comes rarely with great changes to COA. Though, frankly, I remember some of the starting-quests I did from when I first tried to join years ago. And repeating quests is akin to grinding maps mindlessly, imo.
Now I don't agree with any of the nonsense about cliches or elitists BS--that reflects real life and was something I was looking forward to joining or working with other players to create. However, COA would need a few things for me to continue playing here.
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Veteran players that do not metagame. Try pretending you haven't done the same quests a hundred times, esp. when there is a new player in the party.
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Death/XP/respawn penalties not so steep at lower levels. If you are trying to reflect real-life death, you might as well add a script that randomly kills off PCs with cancer that only a Wish spell can alleviate! And one-two newbie toons dying every quest, then respawning and catching up saying they slipped and fell and need to get out of here, doesn't reflect real-life adventuring at all anyway. Losing the XP you gained on a quest (which is pitiful for most quests you can safely do) would be enough at 1-6 levels to make me scared of dying; losing two-levels at 4th level is a game-ender, imo.
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Added content for higher than 13th level. This game is capable of 40th-level (and beyond, though that is ridiculous everywhere I've seen it imo) with built-in mechanics! This isn't D&D, where epic-levels starts getting very complicated and long-winded. An epic-level quest is as easy to make as any other; and epic-level toons are just as easy--and more fun imo--to play than lower level toons. It certainly leaves out a character goal of becoming even just an arch-mage!
All the added content ("with more to come") for toons level 1-13 makes creating a toon very difficult. It also means I am a human paladin out adventuring with lycanthropes, or drow, or vampires, or who knows what else I've been playing with--an odd assortment of non-stereotypical adventurers. I appreciate the content, and the application process so only veteran players can enjoy (I presume that is why you ask for the accounts and other toons I've played), but it is content that one must sift through in order to just begin playing without wasting time making broken characters. Instead of adding more subraces and restrictions, why not spend the next year, each month creating quests for a new teir of levels? By the end of a year you could have a few players safely at the start of epic-level. And I know I personally enjoy making and playing new toons with new players on my usual server; and I'd rather quest alone than follow metagaming veterans through quests they've played a hundred times. (Having NPC's in trouble refusing my help--thank-you for caring so much I might die going into those crypts, since I don't?--is also not a real-life reflection. As you create teirs of quests for higher levels, you could open up lower-level quests for less players or solo players of bit higher of level, i.e., 3-7 PCs of 1st-8th level, or 1-3 PCs of 5-9th level. And additional solo quests so new players can join those epic level veterans wouldn't detract from what I feel COA has to offer.)
- There should be a sticky on forum and in-game when you first log-in (the character token) that explains to newly joining players simply where to find information (the COA wiki, the forums--where information is on the forums--and so forth). Maybe it seems obvious to all, but just telling me there were some people standing in the grass to my right that would let me choose a deity (and that I needed one with the correct domains) would've helped tremendously in not burning me out again after just a week (considering I had spent several hours on forums, reading character token information, seeing the guy standing next to the large hourses, the board next to the camp, etc.). There is way too much information to read--I'd rather spend an hour downloading haks and having veteran players explain to me OOC or IC things I might need or need to know.
Anyway, COA seems to be doing fine imo--when a 15-year-old game server usually has 10 players on it, and often enough 20+, seems you guys have something figured out. This is just what one player would need to continue playing on COA. And its so much, I will just return to Dor Maeglin, despite its dwindled numbers, until I again get sick of NWN and try to find a better game, likely without any luck. :-)
Thanks for reading!
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The problem that seems to be happening is, the risk went up (New AI) but the reward stayed the same
So now the risk is not worth the reward on alot of things
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Some people enjoy the lower-level feel to the game. The higher the level of PCs, the harder it is to keep immersion. I personally think that levels on CoA are perfect for a fun RP experience. One PC shouldn't be able to take out an army unless they do something IG to earn it (ie. Apep).
There are a lot of rules, though, and some of them are difficult to find. This is true.
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If CoA had higher levels than it does currently, i would be playing somewhere else. If death did not have big penalties, i would be playing somewhere else. If it did not have IC things like paladins unable to group with evil… i would play somewhere else.
This is what makes CoA what it is and this is what keeps our players coming back.
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Shame your not giving it ago but low level servers arn't for everyone i play on an epic level server with laughable death penalties that don't really care about evil clerics having the good domain or what you have to say unless you are the afore mentioned epic level,but it is a role play server so if thats what you were looking for i can pm you the name so you can give it ago?
But i would say give this server a go it can take abit of getting into these days due to the massive core changes and now the haks but the fact you won't have to grind to level 20 before anything you have to say will even be noticed makes this in my view a better place to play. -
“Some people enjoy the lower-level feel to the game.”
If done properly, over a length of time, there is no reason adding higher-level content would detract from this.
“The higher the level of PCs, the harder it is to keep immersion.”
Not doing something because it is difficult is lame.
“I personally think that levels on CoA are perfect for a fun RP experience. “
I personally find RP knowing once I hit lvl 13 my toon is finished outside of some extraordinary intervention, somewhat limiting. And there is no reason (if done properly and so it is very difficult and rare) why epic levels toons would ruin any RPing exp.
“One PC shouldn't be able to take out an army unless they do something IG to earn it.”
Even a 40th wizard could not take out an entire army…? If they can, someone is running the battle poorly.
“…If it did not have IC things like paladins unable to group with evil…”
These changes to COA are why I came back and why I would stay. I love the realism COA has to offer. My only point was regarding all the odd and supposedly extremely rare races wandering around COA, yet not a single 14th level toon. And it didn’t take away from my RPing experience either. It ADDED to it.
I don’t even necessarily think XP penalty should be lowered, more than I feel veteran players should not metagame quests with new players, watching you die. If you feel so comfortable metagaming a quest, why not say something to the new player you know is about to die in the next room? (IC or OCC, whatever—I certainly was told enough how I could not mess up somebody’s XP reward on a caravan quest!)
“Low level servers arn't for everyone i play on an epic level server with laughable death penalties that don't really care about evil clerics having the good domain or what you have to say unless you are the afore mentioned epic level,but it is a role play server so if thats what you were looking for i can pm you the name so you can give it ago?”
Again, I came back to COA because of the RPing and realism aspects (all clerics not having travel and trickery domain, e.g.). To say adding epic levels would take away from that is laughable, because all it is just limiting imo. Every novel I’ve read is full of epic-level adventurers, doing epic-level stuff. Forgotten Realms is a vast and epic campaign setting.
“But i would say give this server a go it can take abit of getting into these days due to the massive core changes and now the haks but the fact you won't have to grind to level 20 before anything you have to say will even be noticed makes this in my view a better place to play.”
I may yet still, though am burnt out atm. As I said in original post, there is nothing different than grinding maps than having to start over again, spend hours making a new toon, just to do the same quests again. That is why XP penalty is overbearing at 1-6 level. Everywhere I go I see people rushing about finding wagon axles, books, and backpacks, and killing bats, snakes, skeletons, and whatnot. Just to hurry up and hit 7th level. I don’t think getting to epic levels should be something you can grind in a week here; I would like it to take a real-life year just to hit 21st level, if you're lucky and extremely patient! The fact you can never is very limiting to me.
But I get it. I probably always return to NWN because it is based on a game I have loved for 20+ years. If they updated NWN 1 to 4th ed. D&D rules, I would not like it. I wouldn’t even listen to anyone’s reasons for wanting to do it (even though I dislike D&D 4 because it seems to be trying to turn PnP D&D into a video game). I know even on my usual server I get annoyed when they change something trivial. ;-)
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The lower level offer a sense of uniqueness and realism because you are NOT Elminster's rival in magical power, you cannot go against Drizzt and kick his ass in single combat. You can not sneak past that dragon. You do not slay an ancient red dragon because it's tuesday.
By keeping it low level, all of this, brings a feeling of epicness to the server. Your character does not end at lvl 13. You can in fact get higher than that. But by doing that you have to DO epic stuff to become epic.
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I would agree the wiki and (non)existent website offers no friendly info for new players. They have to sift through obsolete links, forum threads, unorganized wiki and conflicting player advice…
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"By keeping it low level, all of this, brings a feeling of epicness to the server. Your character does not end at lvl 13. You can in fact get higher than that. But by doing that you have to DO epic stuff to become epic."
I was told there were no quests for once you hit 13th level.
Last I checked, NWN toolset allows you to make epic quests.
Adding epic content makes a server feel epic.
"Slaying an ancient red dragon because it is Tuesday…" You see, you are unnecessarily biased to how this servers been for too long.
On my usual server, there is low-level stuff: it feels low-level. There may not be the realism and RP COA has to offer (a shame), but it feels low level. It is difficult, with heavy XP penalties. Unfortunately, there are not enough DMs to enforce you not taking your higher-levels in and buffing low-level parties (those that are refuse to enforce it, because it's been that way too long and the few remaining veteran all threaten to vanish if they do); raising them; etc. But there is also stuff that requires epic level and an epic amount of hours to get to. There are some dragons you COULD go kill with your epic level easily (for little reward, rhyme, or reason, because it's Tuesday), but there are many even a group of 10 lvl 40's often die trying to slay. As a low-level toon, you never even see these things. But you hear they are out there.
All I've heard on COA is once I hit lvl 13 there are no more quests. I sit around in my tower and wait for a DM to make something for me. That is, if I have not pissed them all off at one time or the other, inadvertently, because I am just a faceless player, with nothing but my keyboard to communicate with. And then, only until the server is wiped again anyway. Then I get to start all over grinding the same quests I've already done and probably have little patience to not metagame just a little during.
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@Khamal:
I would agree the wiki and (non)existent website offers no friendly info for new players. They have to sift through obsolete links, forum threads, unorganized wiki and conflicting player advice…
What would you suggest we added, out of interest?
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If you made elvel 13 and are still just another unknown face and wait around for a dm to do something for you, you're not realizing what the server is about my friend.
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"If you made elvel 13 and are still just another unknown face and wait around for a dm to do something for you, you're not realizing what the server is about my friend."
I was quoting what a veteran told me OOC IG. I am only suggesting that "what this server is about" would not be changed by adding higher-level content. Perhaps in v3 you all tried adding some content for lvls 13-21 and it temporarily changed what the server is about….
It seems half my replies are not posting properly. As I wrote last in regards to being able to slay Drizzt in single-combat: Why not? Why can't I make a character who's goal is to slay Drizzt in single-combat? Someday, after hours of RP, grinding quests, brushes with death.. years, why couldn't I face the famous and epic Drizzt and at least try to defeat him? Seems that is the stuff for books... no Artemis Entreri growing up in COA. =(
That is what I mean by limiting.
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What would you suggest we added, out of interest?
well how about the welcome message in big flashing letters saying read the sign on your "left" before you do anything else.
Then put all the links and boring crap on said glowing large and impossible to miss sign.like where to get the info(character token) website address,role play rules crap like that,every other server i go on has something like this.
Then add all the spell changes and mechanic's changes to the character tokens because i know i for one prefer to do everything in game and i already know most of this stuff,a new player would be struggling just to understand what the hell is going on.P.S. When i play on a new server i try it out before i go to the forums i played CoA for 1 month before i made a forum account i learned stuff from players as i wanted to play the game not read about it.
New players arn't really wanting to have to spend a good hour at least reading all the rules and changes to play a 15 year old game. -
You CAN kill Drizzt, you CAN do all thats tuff, DMs just don't want to you be able to grind your way to epic levels. You can reach much higher levels if you create enough awesome and earn it without grinding.
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"What would you suggest we added, out of interest?"
Added? It needs to be organized and accessible. I don't know how many times I clicked a link to get nonexistent webpage trying to find deity information beyond what their allowable domains are (or I clicked on the "custom domains" thread thinking deity information was there. I mean, I am finally set now if I decide to try and make another worshipper. I think….
You have so much information and content, what I would do is create a PDF COA Player's Handbook, formatted very similar to D&D, and put it on a sticky at top of forums, and direct new players to this link in-game, on The Road to Arabel, directly on the character token--so they don't miss it amidst all the other information collected there.
Obviously, I have entirely too much free-time. ;-)
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"You CAN kill Drizzt, you CAN do all thats tuff, DMs just don't want to you be able to grind your way to epic levels. You can reach much higher levels if you create enough awesome and earn it without grinding."
As I said regarding other reply, I obviously have too much free time. ;-)
As for grinding way to epic level: I still don't see the reason why you can't have epic-level quests built in as the low level ones are. I am grinding every time I have to redo the same quests with a new character. So there is still grinding. You do not need to build new areas full of dragons that respawn so players can mindlessly grind their way to epic levels. But you could add a quest, doable once, that will allow some progression to 14th. In time, you could add another, with some progression towards 15th. Eventually, you could have several quests, extremely difficult quests doable once, that will allow players to achieve higher levels on their own. Not a hundred quests, like lower-levels, so you end up mindlessly grinding them with 50 toons to epic level.
This is one of the problems with the new Diablo game. You hit your cap level and all you do is grind for better gear. (Diablo doesn't compare to COA btw!) I am sorry so many like hitting their cap level and still feel motivated to RP to maybe someday finally hear that ding and be the only one or two to hit 14th level on the server. That really sucks, because COA is an amazing server!
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There is a quest that has level limit 20.
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Levels and loot are a means to an end, not the end itself.
Are you going to play an infernalist bent on sacrificing Kanthea to release a powerful demon?
Is your necromancer secretly stealing monstrous limbs to create an undead monstrosity with which he will hold the city hostage to his whims?
Or are you the paladin who does not accept a "no win" situation, ready to step between the powerful gangs of the south and their intended victims despite being outnumbered and outmatched?This is what CoA is about, and it has very little to do with levels and loot.
Don't get me wrong - many people, myself included - did play for levels and loot at one point or other, and I'm sure many still do, but when you realize you can get all that and more by focusing on creating something no amount of scripts could reproduce, it's not a huge change of mindset to pursue a different goal in game.
And before you know it, you've hit what makes CoA so special amongst online RPGs - that taking the smart route, bluffing your way out of an arrest, or bribing a thug is not going to deteriorate your gameplay in any way by removing an opportunity to fight someone, which is all that simpler RPGs are about in the end.
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With higher levels comes mundanity. Higher levels also makes it rather more difficult to balance DM-run events in a way that keeps it meaningful for everyone (I'd rather not be cordoned off into the Little Kids section because Mr. Epic Level can grind quests better than I can.) A lower level range also keeps the playing field a bit more equal, combat PVP-wise.
High-levels aren't the point of CoA.
(Also, Drizzt and Elminster are really god-awful characters. You can come up with a better goal than "I want to kill Drizz't.")
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@Khamal:
I would agree the wiki and (non)existent website offers no friendly info for new players. They have to sift through obsolete links, forum threads, unorganized wiki and conflicting player advice…
What would you suggest we added, out of interest?
create a one page website with core information and link it to the starting area. Or you could just add an organized assortment of bulletin boards on starting area.