Gone with the Win - CoA & PvP
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@Broken:
DM team needs to work as a cohesive unit and allow eachother the chance to work with eachothers creations so that, just in case the original DM is AWOL another one can easily take their place and continue the plotline for the players involved.
If needed, I can outline how the military uses a system of "game injects" to run our large scale wargames, which are essentially a bunch of wargame plots. I think it could be easily adapted to a PW NWN server. PM if anyone is interested or talk to me in mIRC.
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I think that V5 needs to take the best parts of V3 (stable equilibrium with carefully balanced opposing powers) and V4 (excellent opportunity for players to influence things) and imrprove and meld them together.
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A way to drive might be having 3-5 megaplots that obviously involve competing groups on different parts of the spectrum and the DMs can place inputs into the system to help guide the direction that it goes. These should be long term plots with distinct, planned phases that while somewhat scripted, have enough wiggle room that players dont' feel like they are on rails.
I think if the DMs and players can figure those little details out, you've got a perfect combination.
Do we have enough players for 3-5 metaplots?
Perhaps 1-2. -
@The:
The setting was too stale and it was impossible to have an impact. Now it is possible, but as a side effect the setting is fluid, ever changing, and therefore it can be difficult to keep track with it.
What do you think has changed besides the number of regimes Arabel has gone through and the factions competing to control it? I understand one of the main complaints of v3 was that it was hard to make an impact on the setting and I acknowledge that but at the same time v4's idea of change for the most part largely artificial and comes too easily making change itself feel meaningless. When you actually managed to change something in v3 even though you could only make small ones it felt meaningful because that alone probably took 6 months of effort and hard work. If players want to overthrow Lhal or whoever the ruler is in Arabel fine but it shouldn't be something that happens as lightly as it has been in the past and it should be very hard to do. Big goals aren't the only ones that should be encouraged, smaller and medium sized goals are fine too for instance seeing a faith that wasn't popular before grow in numbers to the point where it gets it's own temple. This kind of goal should be sought after as well, very few people will get the chance to be the president of the United States but this doesn't mean they shouldn't find something worth striving for nor does it mean they can't make a difference in their own way.
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I would like an example of someone managing to overthrow Lahl in less than 6 months if you have it. Nothing happens lightly, things are just far fmore possible now. You can't just walk in and do something, you still have to work.
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The change of regime is the one that has happened more frequently (frequently? Maybe a couple of times) because it is the biggest change possible and what players who aim high aim for. In the game of thrones, you either win or die. And I don't think anyone playing that kind of game wants to simply participate. They aim to win, and winning means to be the one in charge.
Smaller changes can happen too, but the truth is people do not aim for small changes, they aim for fireworks.
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I would like an example of someone managing to overthrow Lahl in less than 6 months if you have it. Nothing happens lightly, things are just far fmore possible now. You can't just walk in and do something, you still have to work.
Can't think of anyone that wasn't a DM beforehand. You have me there.
@The:
The change of regime is the one that has happened more frequently (frequently? Maybe a couple of times) because it is the biggest change possible and what players who aim high aim for. In the game of thrones, you either win or die. And I don't think anyone playing that kind of game wants to simply participate. They aim to win, and winning means to be the one in charge.
Smaller changes can happen too, but the truth is people do not aim for small changes, they aim for fireworks.
Lmao. "Maybe a couple of times" is a little too much for a setting that should really pride itself in its nobility, knightly heros, courtly intrigues, and arthurian values. But then again, that was Cormyr wasn't it? I think the server took a hit when the Pheonix Legion won the Civil War and practically turned it into some rl democratic snooze-fest and then left, leaving behind a huge sandbox that noone really cares about anymore because they've seen the uniforms of the NPCs guarding the gates change a few times already and not really interested in how fanciful the next lot might look. I'm alittle tired of posting, and you're all probably a little tired of seeing me post so, for ease-of-use, i'll break down my thoughts into easy to read bullets.
DMs
Players
Server as a whole
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@Broken:
How about the difficulty in changing the world? Does changing the world matter to the majority of players here? Do we want immersion over epicness? IE: Would you rather have a local noble hold a jousting tournament to find a champion to lead a martial project of his? or fight a God-eating Rift monster whos been threatening Arabel, Cormyr and Faerun as a whole but has so far only gotten the attention of the local law enforcement? And not, you know, the chosen of fucking Mystra or something that would, probably happen if it were in FR?
I prefer a more epic plot-line. It does admittedly get stale if you go from apocalyptic-plot/villain to apocalyptic plot/villain with no time to breathe in between, and I think that desensitization is the bigger problem here.
As to the part about the chosen of Mystra - well, things wouldn't be much fun if Elminister just set up shop and opened up a portal into an alternate dimension that has Ed Greenwood's house in it. I might even say that having an apocalyptic plot threatening Mystra as much as Lyss did would pave the way for a PC to potentially become an ordained Chosen of Mystra, or a ranking War Wizard, Shadovar Agent, etc.
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You're taking my example too seriously. Epic is fine once in a while, but in recent years it's just been utterly ridiculous how frequent these things have popped up. I may be biased because I vehemently despise high-fantasy in most forms. Unfortunately, CoA is the only server that I enjoy spending more than an hour on. FR is fairly high-fantasy, granted, but Arabel shouldn't really be the center of the fucking apocalypse.
Now if it were the effects of the future spellplague on the other hand…
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These threads are getting boring, Improvement Thread #17 brings nothing new to the table, it’s the same pretentious comments from volumes 1 through 16 and it’s not even repackaged.
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Oh, I wouldn't call others pretentious were I you, Mr. Mover and Shaker.
DMs should probably lock this thread, but hopefully some of its been read. There's probably a reason why some of this stuff is repeated.
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I've got to agree with BG here. . . We had a lot of the same problems on our server and guess what, it died. Horribly. Repackaged or not, it's being said time and again because it has a grain of truth to it.
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These threads are never productive, I should know, I’ve started/contributed to them countless times, usually when I was burned out and frustrated and just spouted haughty comments about the current state of play.
Most people that participate in these threads haven’t contributed to Arabel in years, we knock the current state of play because “Arabel was better back in my day”, we suggest improvements but never do anything IG ourselves, and it’s almost always pompous bullshit.
I’ve made so many snobbish posts on this subject I’ve lost count, and BG you’re exactly the same. 95% of these posts are the same. Isn’t it boring anyone else yet?
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Dude, I'm not going on about the "good old days". I've played CoA until a week or so ago. I'm talking about OOC things that could be done, nothing to do with stuff IG. This is the fifth version of this server, at a time when NWN is at its least popular, our playerbase are generally all CoA loyalists who want the best for the server. Why not look towards making V5 the best yet? Why not take some advice, some thats been said over and over because noone has really listened and actually thought it through, and tailor things to how our current playerbase would like it be.
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I like these threads cause there is always a golden quote in it. And the countdown of when someone leaves the server, then joins again two weeks later is great.
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As a DM I do try to read almost everything that is suggested. I can tell you that many of the suggestions that are being offered refer to problems we too are aware of, and that we have tried to address in the next incarnation of the server. Whether the solutions we have found are suitable or not, only time will tell.
There is one though that I feel needs to be addressed. Mainly sharing plots between DMs. While on paper that would be great, I cannot see that happen. If we were paid, and had to offer an enjoyable product to the customers, then much could be done in that department. But the honest truth is that, much as the players are, the DMs are here to have fun. And we have fun telling stories. Stories that we find fun. Unfortunately we may not share the same interests, and I'm not gonna master a story that I do not find enjoyable. I won't pick up a story another DM has left (because of several possible reasons) unless I find it stunning. I would rather start my own story than tell someone else's story. Because I know it better. Because I enjoy it more. Because I find myself more comfortable with it. Because of [insert your reason of preference]. So while on paper the idea of having plots that can be picked up by other DMs when one leaves is good, I do not think it is feasible. Of course we are aware that that is a considerable problem and we have been looking for solutions.
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Quick ending version is the best solution I can come up with.
No matter how far through a story or plot is, if the DM running it leaves for a good while, and its just a dead plot, check the short sweet ending version that should be written up for all mini DM plots. Wrap it up in one session. Not ideal, but at least a megatonne of stuff isn't left lying around.
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I would like an example of someone managing to overthrow Lahl in less than 6 months if you have it. Nothing happens lightly, things are just far fmore possible now. You can't just walk in and do something, you still have to work.
It took us 3 weeks to put Lhal in and overthrow ??? (I have no bloody clue, Cassiel I guess), partially delayed for the last quest involved. I'm prettysure the Civil War lasted under 6 months too (ya know, ovethrowing Lhal and Cormyr the first go around).
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@The:
As a DM I do try to read almost everything that is suggested. I can tell you that many of the suggestions that are being offered refer to problems we too are aware of, and that we have tried to address in the next incarnation of the server. Whether the solutions we have found are suitable or not, only time will tell.
There is one though that I feel needs to be addressed. Mainly sharing plots between DMs. While on paper that would be great, I cannot see that happen. If we were paid, and had to offer an enjoyable product to the customers, then much could be done in that department. But the honest truth is that, much as the players are, the DMs are here to have fun. And we have fun telling stories. Stories that we find fun. Unfortunately we may not share the same interests, and I'm not gonna master a story that I do not find enjoyable. I won't pick up a story another DM has left (because of several possible reasons) unless I find it stunning. I would rather start my own story than tell someone else's story. Because I know it better. Because I enjoy it more. Because I find myself more comfortable with it. Because of [insert your reason of preference]. So while on paper the idea of having plots that can be picked up by other DMs when one leaves is good, I do not think it is feasible. Of course we are aware that that is a considerable problem and we have been looking for solutions.
Of course it's feasible Count, you just don't want to do it.
You don't need to read a shitton paragraphs nor do you need to write a novel to dish out a good jist of what happens and what can happen. (IE: Brief Background, Goal and possible alternatives, name of main NPCs involved and a sentence or two about their personality/goal, a list of PCs involved.) that would take up maybe 15-20 mins of your time, and one would only need to read it if say, DM A is AWOL and the players who need this particular plot pushed are stuck in limbo because of it. One of the main reasons for so many open, unsolved, and stagnant plots is the sheer number of them that get started and the DM involved just gets bored or has to leave or just starts a new one. If that is too hard, then build your plot-creating system around something that would allow it, if the only reason why things are as it is with factions or storylines or stuff thats been put in the module and subseqently abandoned by the entire Team is because noone wants to read a write up - that does not send a good message to the players about how the servers being run.
Sure, DMing is not easy. It takes some work, but then again, thats sorta what you signed up for when you agreed to DM for a persistant world server, particuarly one that has pride itself on a coherant storyline (Generally speaking) and its particular setting. It's not meant to be a playground of lovecraftian fanboys and G.R. Martin wannabees. It needs some sort of structure so that it is, in practice, a persistant world. Whether that means changing how you guys go about creating plots or managing them or selecting your team (because 'good at RP' is not a feasible requirement) and changing the server for the better in V5 to what our remaining playerbase would like to see. Hell, if its all too much, put some transparency between the team and playerbase and let players build stuff or script or whatever. We're an online community, technically, yet the servers been run as if it is a buisness and the players are customers but the DMs aren't paid, so they cut-costs on some things and neglect other stuff whilst putting on a show once in awhile to prove the server isn't dead and that everythings an organised mess behind the scenes.
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BG and Bable for DMs… said this years ago, yall derpin.
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In the current system, most faction characters still work for some sort of NPC. DMs could push a lot of the workload onto the players concerning how we get from here (where we don't want to be) to there (where we do want to be) concerning various plots. The benefit being that DMs can know what both sides are trying to accomplish (or more than both when there are not directly opposing groups) and can then figure out what the preferred server outcome will be. Then, you can steer the ship where you're trying to end up.
There are always going to be multiple groups pushing sometimes in more than one direction. The direction that you want the ship to go gets the least resistance and magically, if it is closer to where my group is trying to get than my opposition, then I'll likely get onboard that train. (yes, I'm mixing metaphors like nuts in a squirrels nest).
If one group is gonna lose horribly and they're too stubborn to get it, but it still needs to happen, use your NPCs to give them a new priority that is elsewhere. If that fails, just tell them OOCly that they did a great job but it needs to go this way for the overall good and throw them some IC bones for their next action.
I've been in several factions, and I've always found it easier to swallow IC stuff that I thought was stupid when I was given an OOC reason for that made it more palatable. As a guard faction character there were many times where things "came down from higher" that seemed to be the absolute worst thing we could do, and ICly, I was quite irritated with it, but OOCly, it made sense because it was pretty obvious that the DMs were trying to work some balance issues. Regardless, it was always easier IC and OOC to swallow the decisions when the DMs just let us know something like "balance is a bit off. "Team Crime has taken some heavy losses and we're reigning you guys in to let them get back on their feet. In the meantime, here is a big NPC problem for you to work out and put your effort against" would work like a champ and make it very clear why the rules of engagement were changed.