DM censoring on the forums
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@Thune we regularly delete toxic 'leaving' posts. Nothing new here. Easier to say, "Bye." Than it is to write a long-winded diatribe about how toxic (it isn't) the server has become.
We do it for their sake as well, really. They may want to come back one day, and don't want what they said in anger and in hurt held against them in the future.
The door is always open unless rules were broken, and even then- the door will hopefully open for them again.
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Censored!!
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I'm a big believer that text alone does not fully portray a person's 'message.' There's just so much missing from the message - body language and tone, to name a few. I've been misunderstood many times by talking to others thinking I was upset or mad, including DMs.
So I understand why DMs would want to delete the posts to prevent misconceptions arising because ultimately, as @Mr-Moloch has said, this is their house.But I believe this goes both ways....
I have to agree with @Thune about the recent announcement. Personally, I feel there were unnecessary use of some particular words. For example, "We were very disappointed that DM-Sandman did not agree to adhere to these guidelines and harmed some relationships in the NWN community by venting his problems out of context to others in a way that strained friendships and, we feel, were misleading to those who heard them." The announcement felt like it was beginning to become subjective. It should have ended with, "Ultimately we had creative differences and the majority of the DM team agreed to have Sandman removed."It scares me, as a player, to see DMs have the ability to phrase announcements like this with no ability to reply to the thread. I can't help but to think, "What if this happens to me one day?" (Hopefully speaking out like this doesn't burn all my bridges with the DM team. D:)
@CaptainFantastic I also understand the 'ninja-booting' if there is no longer trust. I would not be able to trust that person from doing something to the security of the server or whatever you guys have hidden on the DM side. So I have no issues there. Again, ultimately it is someone else's house - something we all have to understand. If the homeowner wants something done, whether you believe it right or wrong, the homeowner has the right to do that.
As to divert away from the OP's original post, I am immensely upset at the departure of @Twisted-Flame and @T-Bone . They were 2 of the 6 welcoming players to me upon my arrival in CoA ( @TheTwistingWind , @coamaniac , @Puffy , and @SpiffyMeister are the other 4.) I'm not entirely sure and likely never will find out what truly happened due to not experiencing it first hand.
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Moderation exists on nearly every single gaming forum known to man. It's just the culture that revolves around the gaming community. People get angry and upset. If I posted something on the forums here that was said out of anger and or rushed assumptions, I'd likely be okay after the fact if the post was deleted. It's a means to save face when you say something you don't mean.
Words-verbal and text- are very powerful and can effectively be worse than just flat out physically hurting someone. So just be careful of what you say.
To answer the question, no. It's not negative or demeaning. It's a way to keep the forums clean and less toxic. It's also to help those that say something remain in the community after they say something harsh or wrong, or start derailing topics. Unless DMs start deleting posts that are positive or constructive for no reason, I'd say let them continue policing the forums like they have been for years.
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I wanted to stay out of this, I did, but with the post that captain has made (one you could use to fertilize a few good fields with), I cant keep being Switzerland.
@captainfantastic said in DM censoring on the forums:
~ comment about shoddy documentation on the haks was translated to "gmork did shoddy work on the haks". Gmork got mad and went off on Echo of all people, not only the nicest person on the server but the person who always stuck up for our aussie comrades, and we all felt that trust was broken again.
I was not mad, I was disappointed and frustrated that people who do not understand what or how a 'modular hak' is were commenting on it often about how shoddy the work was instead of coming to speak with me openly about it.
I never 'went off' at Echo but I was very irritated that, after hearing this going on since I left she comes to ask for help. Here is the whole conversation.
Echo - Last Monday at 10:13 PM
I have a question about haks (again) .. the AraDev module only has a_haks and q_haks and doesnt use any c_haks; does that mean you put all the c_hak stuff into the a_hak stuff?Gmork - Last Monday at 10:40 PM
Going to be blunt here but not sure why I'm getting asked these questions when apparently my work is so shoddy. Surely it would be better to start from scratch and do some quality work. Of course the people who are saying these things have no idea about haks or what they are talking about which is evident in what is being said.Echo - Last Monday at 10:41 PM
Uh..
Look hon, I'm just trying to figure out what this stuff doesGmork - Last Monday at 10:41 PM
Did you expect a different response?Echo - Last Monday at 10:42 PM
Considering I've never said what you did was "shoddy" only that I dont know how it works? a
and considering I've never been anything but nice to you?
Yes, I suppose I did expect a different response
a simple "yes I put all the c into a" would've been sufficient
I'll find a way to figure it out myself, I guessGmork - Last Monday at 10:44 PM
Yeah. But Echo I saw us as friends and when I see no one saying shit to moloch and letting him say what he wants and not being able to defend myself it is upsetting. I pride myself on my work and spent months and months doing these haks for coaEcho - Last Monday at 10:44 PM
I dont know if it's shoddy because I dunno wtf it does
and I -have- defended you
as recently as last night
but I guess Sandman didnt tell you that partGmork - Last Monday at 10:47 PM
Not just him I have heard things from. But I'm not going to argue about it, if you want to learn about haks download the custom content guide that is where I started learning it all 15 years ago.Echo - Last Monday at 10:48 PM
"yes I put all the c into a" would've been sufficient, but thanks anyway.
Gmork - Last Monday at 10:48 PM
WhateverEcho - Last Monday at 10:49 PM
There is no cause for you to be a dick to me, Gmork, after all the times I -have- defended you and pushed for you and Tinker to be back on the teamGmork - Last Monday at 10:49 PM
Done talkingEcho - Last Monday at 10:49 PM
Been nice knowing yaAnd that is it. My definition of going off at some might be different than others, but this is not hostile or an attack or vindictive.
As for broken trust? Sandman spoke to an ex-DM about something that was said about them. We have all (dm's that is) spoken openly to ex-DM's about things in the game and on the forums. That is not breaking trust or cause for an immediate dismissal from the team.
We had a DM give out private information on several DM's to players (now that is breaking trust in a huge way) and all they got was a slap on the wrist after a 4 day discussion.
When I left, I wanted to stay on good terms with the server and left my offer for help with custom content but no one came to ask me about them or even come and tell me to my face they can't understand it and the work was shoddy. I would have explained it. Happily. Things were done to accommodate certain requests from the team; but I will not go into it further.
Anyway, that's it. Said all I need and i want you all to know that this post is not made in anger or with malicious intent. -
I don't like the term "its our house", since both players and DM's make the server great. I also censored myself because my post was likely a bit much for the people involved, even if it was giving you guys exactly what you asked for. I couldn't help putting the bold censor though, because of the thread. The reality is that we are all human beings prone to mistakes, and there are certainly things that could have been handled better regarding this situation. But no matter how well it was handled, the end result would have been the same.
It just wasn't working out.
As for T-bone and Twisted Flame, it has come to my attention that it was an interaction with me that made them quit, which is unfortunate. I was possessing a evil assassin, and played the role of an evil assassin, but apparently frustrations I was not aware of boiled over because of it.
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Look, all I wanted was to do was reply to the Announcement post, that was un-needed and contained misinformation from their point of view. I don't want to discuss it, just make my feelings and my point of view known.
It is really getting quite hurtful to me, that is why I am staying out of it as much as I can and I thank those of you that have contacted me with your kind words and support, as it was a hard and sad day for me ... hit me hard as some of you will know but if a member of the community asks me a question in a private chat I will answer them.
I was hoping it would not have come to this, as I truly have the best interests of the players and the community at heart as it has always been my focus and yes I was genuinely concerned on the direction of the new EE server vision.
Thank you for removing those comments Captain and thank you all for your time.
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Soooo ummmmm....ignoring the drama that doesn't belong in this thread and is off topic.... and going back to the original discussion.
I for one don't like hopping on the forums to see someone whining and complaining about something in the ooc leaving thread. When those complaints should be directed at a dm in private.
So yeah... I'm totally for stuff like that getting deleted. Especially if it's your a-typical. "The world is out to get me so I'm quitting, and you should all quit and come with me too" type of posts.
Or even worse... "This specific person is out to get me, I'm leaving, you should all start a witch hunt for my sake" type of posts...Which regrettably has happened in the past, sometimes no names get dropped but shit gets implied heavily, that stuff really does need to get deleted.
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I thought after 14 years, that I had seen it all. Sorry to see that things have come to this. That said; There is NICE to know, and there is NEED to know. Knowing that a DM has left the DM team is NEED to know. Knowing VERY vaguely, that there have been some discussions and that the DM team do not always agree, is NEED to know. Everything Else. NICE to know, and not needed.
I am FINE with dms removing potential toxic posts on the forum, and that they keep secrets. We are a community, sure, but we are not a democracy. Otherwise, DMs would be chosen by election.
I am really sorry to see this, and it bums me out. But, when I was logged in last weekend, we had over 30 players playing. 3 months ago, we were lucky to see 10 online at the same time. Sandman, I am sorry to see you go, I always liked you dude. I hope you guys can settle this BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.
Make a forum where you can talk it out if needs be, but do not do so in public. To a player, this is like the CEO and the CTO of a major company, having it all our during lunch. That is not good for anyone.
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I think @o-louth summed it up fairly.
This is always the most draining aspect of DMing, this is where people burn out, where grudges are born and where it stops being fun. And that's when you're dealing with a player, not a DM.
As Olouth says, we all love you guys, Sandman, Gmork, Tinker, you're part of the community and you've helped build what we have. But this is a conversation that is better kept behind closed doors. If the announcement is poorly worded, the DM team are the ones to contact about it, and I am confident that something as sensitive as this would get full attention.
That said I know you guys avoided airing the dirty laundry so I'm not trying to say this for your benefit. You already know the score. It may help other players understand how these things normally go.
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Yes, had there been a problem with how the announcement was worded, probably just privately contacting us about the issue and phrasing would have gone a long way. The thing I've learned over the year is most problems disappear when you talk it out instead of letting it fester and venting OUT instead of UP.
I will reiterate to JoeKickAss, it was not a disagreement about the server direction. If there were the case, the team would have asked me to leave years ago because I have always wanted to go in directions we haven't gone. lol
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Hey, folks directly involved in this, is it.. er. . ok if we talk about it in a less public place? We've been buds a long time, I reckon we can manage to chat about it.
Because really, all that stuff is entirely off topic of this thread.
Technically, I could start deleting off topic posts but .. well yeah.
Anyway, feel free to talk about the topic of if the DM team is censoring things you don't think should be if you like.
The rest, get in touch directly please. It's making me cringe a bit.
Cheers pals.
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I'm pretty liberal about this. No matter how I see it, it is censoring, except when it is spam. Ppl should have their right to make at least one complaint if they want to. It won't make them less agitated if DMs remove their posts, on the contrary. The rest of the forum should be able to decipher whether their complaint is legit or not - most of us are grown-ups are we not? And if they can't they can always ask the parties involved.
Anyways, I've never had my own posts deleted but if I experienced such I would feel contempt towards the server just like I feel contempt when DMs remove "toxic" posts and I see it as abuse of power. It also makes you think if the post was legit or BS, furthering whether the DMs rly are on the right. That situation should never happen and it would not happen if those posts were visible. -
If its toxic, delete it. The DMs have every right to remove unhealthy, toxic and negative comments. Be nice or GTFO.
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Secondly, this is not a democracy. CoA has never had freedom of speech. You play nice, or you get lost. That said, we are always open to hear valid complaints, but when it becomes toxic, remove the arm to save the patient.
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@o-louth I kind of agree with O-louth, if there is a problem, you can address it without being toxic!
IE: If you think DM-Moloch is abusing power and treating people unfairly, and you do not feel you can talk one on one with the DM team or him (which is certainly the first approach you should consider) and so decide that it must be spoken about openly, then I'm entirely alright with someone starting a post saying --
"These specific things happened. I feel they were unfair. I think we should talk about what is going on openly though, maybe I misunderstand something or maybe MrMoloch is not doing a good job as a DM and needs to step down or adjust his approach."
That's fine!
Stating "This is a toxic place. Its going to hell." Well, that's not actually about 'free speech' at all. Its about someone trying to VENT OUT at their fellow players and bring things down rather than an effort to help make things better.
I think people misunderstand free speech. You do not, ever, have the right to say anything you want. DMs enforce a community standard, when I say its "our house" I mean us and the players and everyone altogether. If you want to come over and play, great, come over and start a hard but honest conversation to improve things, great! You want to poop on my dishes and pee on my carpet and tell me the place is toxic...well..no I'll clean up the mess and hope you reconsider a better approach because I expect everyone living here would prefer that.
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@mr-moloch said in DM censoring on the forums:
@o-louth I kind of agree with O-louth, if there is a problem, you can address it without being toxic!
You want to poop on my dishes and pee on my carpet and tell me the place is toxic...well..no I'll clean up the mess and hope you reconsider a better approach because I expect everyone living here would prefer that.
Stop Kink shaming me.
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I had a long talk with Mr.Moloch over the issue. With a fuller picture over what happened, I agree with what has happened, though, as Moloch has said, it should have been worded better.
I still don't agree with censoring. I feel that even venting or criticism has a place, and its part and parcel of CoA.
I would like to remind everyone that for many years, bringing up problems, complaining, or seeking to get things changed were at times roundly ridiculed and the complainant were subject to abuse on IRC an in Forums, and called Whiners, with sometimes even DMs joining in. I have been the target many times, yet it seems many of my complaints are now shared by many, even by some people who were abusing me before.
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As a relatively new / returning player, first I would ask everyone to take a deep breath and remember how awesome this server is right now. Its a very exciting time to play and it looks like the DM team is pushing hard on v6.
Second, remember everyone your dealing with is a person who is doing their work out of love of the game (and unpaid). As a player its really easy to get into an Us vs Them feeling regarding the DM Team. Keep in mind no one is getting paid for this and ask if your post is really going to help the situation. If it is, great. If its not, if its just coming at people to complain / vent you are risking burning out the people who make the server possible. Stuff like this isnt fun for anyone and can be a huge drain.
Finally, on the subject of unmoderated forums. Trust me, you DONT want that. I have seen unmoderated forums in action. They devolve into a mess of someone with the loudest voice / most snarky response / troll ability screwing over the forums and shutting down discussions.
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@uriyel said in DM censoring on the forums:
They devolve into a mess of someone with the loudest voice / most snarky response / troll ability screwing over the forums and shutting down discussions.
This I fully agree with. We have had people who tend to shut down discussions that way, and who have been given free reign to do so.