New Player Perspective
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Bulletin boards.
If i'm a new player and i'm being told to go read some site or forum before i can even roll a character and start playing, i definitely won't bother. -
Disclaimer: This is my personal point of view, and does not reflect the thoughts of the entire DM team.
City of Arabel is a low magic low level server focused on role play. Levels and loot should not matter but the story you tell should.
The death system is harsh because we want death to be feared. We want players to work together, form strategies and also think twice before taking on the forces of the world. Yes, the server needs a little getting used to. Nothing stops you from asking advices. We want stories to come from these deaths, we want characters to fear death and do everything they can to avoid it, we want character braving death and having that excited feeling when they cheat death.
We recently changed the forums and the adressed changed from coa.ender.com to forum.cityofarabel.com. Several old links in the forums are broken because of that. There is a thread in the bug report forums where you can inform us of any broken links. Seems players are just too lazy to report these so we can fix them.
Most of the information you need to know on arabel are in the announcement forums, in the annoucement and sticky sections. Also, additional information is available in the player resource forums.
We expect from characters that are level 10+ to be know heroes/vilains, not faceless unknown people. By the time you reach level 12, your character should be famous or infamous, an important figure of the community in one way or another. I one played a halfling rogue that got a reputation quite rapidly as one of the best scout of the server and that was well before I reached level 12. By the time I was lvl 12, almost every character ICly knew who she was and what she was capable of and who her allies were. They knew not to mess with her not because we was lvl 12, but because of her reputation and very long list of allies and friends which included the military, the police, several noble houses and many player factions and individual players. All gain without being an epic lvl 12. From lvl 10 up to 12, I think the great majority of xp I gained back then was from DM xp. You do not need to be high level to be epic. You need a great story and create a lot of intrigue and adventures for others, not just yourself.
Concerning veteran players and scripted quest, I admit it can be difficult sometimes not to fall into the routine of the quests. But with good role play, you can make them realize they are on the automatic and bring them back to RP. But everywhere, you'll find players not in the mood to rp and just want to grind through quest for gold and loot. It is a shame but we cannot control that 24/7.
Information is possibly scattered all over the place and we need specific feedback to know what is missing and suggestions to let us know where to put it and what we can do to make things easier.
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Now, after four broken toons
Can you explain how your toons where broken?
Also, i'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with a seasoned player. I too make the mistake sometimes of grinding through the lower level quests. After doing Tyche shrine 2345923485097 times, the necromancer at the end isn't so shocking! I do make an effort to RP however when my party is doing so. You'll find almost all regulars here kind and helpful to new players. We all know NWN is at its end so shooing potential players away is dumb.
btw, the pro of a lower level server is that mage classes are not god mode. The power disparity between casters and none casters in higher level servers is tremendous. The gap still exsists here but atleast I dont have to worry about a 40 dc death spell
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"Levels and loot are a means to an end, not the end itself. This is what CoA is about, and it has very little to do with levels and loot. Don't get me wrong - many people, myself included - did play for levels and loot at one point or other, and I'm sure many still do, but when you realize you can get all that and more by focusing on creating something no amount of scripts could reproduce, it's not a huge change of mindset to pursue a different goal in game."
And before you know it, you've hit what makes CoA so special amongst online RPGs - that taking the smart route, bluffing your way out of an arrest, or bribing a thug is not going to deteriorate your gameplay in any way by removing an opportunity to fight someone, which is all that simpler RPGs are about in the end."
Agreed.
Why not cut all the quests entirely? Mostly what I saw from my experience was people grinding these quests, veterans metagaming, anyway.
I didn't write any of the quests. Why are the majority of the ones I saw combat oriented? I have DMed for over 20 years and most of my modules are story and role-playing based; with rewards on those things, little on combat. The one DM-event I was allowed to join at 4th level, even though I tried to "listen" in on a convo and tired to ascertain IC if I was too low level, was way beyond my character's skill: she died from one-hit and it took place in an arena were groups were just spawned on us. Thankfully she was resurrected and still is 4th level, but in the fugure I learned she would likely never reach 13th level, when she would finally maybe earn her first level in AA Prc. Making that my character's life goal–getting a level in AA--seems limited. =(
I know what the NWN toolset is capable of. Quests could be scripted for individual character types, just as DM could run them in-game. They need not be combat oriented. They need not be numerous. A quest could be seen by all but one group of adventurer's, akin to Tomb of Horrors!.. with only one one-armed survivor to tell the next group daring to go there.
I hear what COA is about, but from my experience as a new player, I did not see this. Why do I have to "grind" low-level quests to get to see it occasionally at 13th level, months later?
To discard a desire for progression as a style of play based on levels and loot is missing the point. I enjoy progression as well as adding meat to my characters and the story. Without either (my usual server lacks the meat), I feel something is missing. D&D was designed--with a very neat mechanics system so it is easy (NWN makes it even easier!)--for this sort of thing. I can just write stories; and I do.
Regardless, levels and loot is a means to end, even if that is the end for that specific character. I just don't see how it is any of you can connect a desire for progression to not end outside of DM-run events for a video-game! I play PnP D&D too.. I like to get on and continually progress with my characters on NWN, whatever well-thought out goals I've made for that character. I get that COA is not about high-level characters... just saying that limiting it because it is difficult; or suggesting that by creating a few extremely difficult, scripted, connected, chalked full of intrigue and RP, high level quests, so I, as a player, knew it was out there; would change that.. change what COA is about, seems very closed-minded to me.
But if you say I can do that, continually progress with a character until v5, I have the time, patience, and willingness to try. I suppose the veteran who told me otherwise was not as veteran as I thought. I hope there does not come a point when I am sitting in my "tower" with little to do but talk about how I used to adventure.
--- (I see now why they didn't post ;-)
On my usual epic server nobody fears mages. Mine fears the death magic, mind immune, scythe-wielding barbarians that can crit past my defenses for 200+ damage even (and I am just thankful TS doesn't work through GS there so I can run away). I don't have experience with a ton of servers, but there I've never noticed any power gaps (except between the poorly designed characters and the power builds) and between a 17th-level mage and a 10th level fighter (who should not be wearing DM immunity gear imo). Buffing characters is almost pointless when you have achieved epic levels with epic gear that can have any numerous enchantments on them (DM immunity and mind immunity the two most important).
Here are how my toons are broken: two clerics unable to cast spells because I didn't pick domains on lists I didn't know existed; one cleric because she is god-awful archer that took Sor level so she could someday earn AA (at 13th level she will meet requirements); and one Pal of Arvoreen, because she was led to a Raksasha by a group who obviously knew what they were doing, who then backed off the fight as she approached, and she died (and I deleted in anger, having had fun RPing her [and the other three] for several hours and thought I was set with a toon I could at least play to 13, would be decent, and I could work with other players to achieve some progression and plot at some point).
sigh
I am going to make another and I will just demand veterans not metagame or go on autopilot while I am playing.. or I'll leave party and do quest some other time.
The halfling story is how I'd expect it to be at those levels regardless… a great server. I have just not seen any single good explanation as to how allowing that halfling to have achieved 13th level, 14th.. etc., would've done anything but have added to your experience with him. The nice thing about D&D and NWN is that until there is an 5-level gap (more like 8-level in epic levels) in player-levels, there really is little difference in characters. Obviously, casters get significantly better at their new spell level levels, but seems a trifling thing to overcome. My usual server has done a superb job balancing low-level play with epic-play; now if only they had people on there role-playing, enforcing legal play and restrictions, some story and players creating story, etc.
I think I find that lacking the meat is more detrimental to a server; at least when the server is down to just a few misanthropes! >.<
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I give up. You don't want to listen to what we have to say. You want the server to adapt to what you want, not for you to adapt your game to the server. Not going to happen.
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"I give up. You don't want to listen to what we have to say. You want the server to adapt to what you want, not for you to adapt your game to the server. Not going to happen."
You must've gave up before reading my post, man. LMAO.
Sure I'd like to change some minds, but if you read my post(s?), you'd leave your condescension in your RP. ;-) I've responded to everything everybody's been sayin', listenin', asking questions… and I've even decided since my original post to make a new toon and see if I am wrong, thanks to what most've said.
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"What would you suggest we added, out of interest?"
Added? It needs to be organized and accessible. I don't know how many times I clicked a link to get nonexistent webpage trying to find deity information beyond what their allowable domains are (or I clicked on the "custom domains" thread thinking deity information was there. I mean, I am finally set now if I decide to try and make another worshipper. I think….
You have so much information and content, what I would do is create a PDF COA Player's Handbook, formatted very similar to D&D, and put it on a sticky at top of forums, and direct new players to this link in-game, on The Road to Arabel, directly on the character token--so they don't miss it amidst all the other information collected there.
Obviously, I have entirely too much free-time. ;-)
Not a bad idea. I'll have a look at what I can come up with
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To get a prestige class there are no requirements on the server other than you work towards being that PrC and communicate with a DM on how to go about reaching that goal and earn it through RP in game.
v5 will be a welcome change to end us metagaming old timers. I've had a lot of fun RPing with with veteran players on the current low level scripted quests, but often times it's impossible not to do exactly what you know you should. Sometimes it is a horrifying wreck of a metagamed XP and gold building exercise to be honest, with a lot of players who should know better. Try to force people to slow down, talk and discuss strategy and why the doors are all green or something to distract people from rushing the on the XP train.
It is daunting starting a new character on this server. I play-tested a pure ranger to see the new perks and couldn't find the info I needed or wanted for 30 minutes. The wiki was a good idea but I find it a little unusable structure-wise, but I tried to write a start guide for 4 years and every time I made headway I ducked out for a month or two and then couldn't track down all the rule changes that had been made in my absence. It would be nice to have something structured:
1. What people know IC about the setting (updated with major events)
2. Playable races
3. Playable classes
3.5 multiclass and domain restrictions (I think the chart I did over at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com/Deities.php outside the NWN2 domains is still good.)
4. Application perks
5. Earn in game perks/PrCs
6. Crafting (and dump the FoiG thing on the mechanics. I can learn IG where to buy bottles and RP out apprenticing, but wasting 1000gp because you didn't know some completely OOC setting or undocumented "feature" of the system isn't fun.
7. New player walk-through (this could be IC in the starting area: "hey- head over to my buddy X, or see Y or check out Z- I'll mark them on your map for you.)
8. Basic map
And all wrapped up in a 4 or 5 page packet- not links to 148 post forum threads about those topics (although links to get "more info")Having said that- once you get the swing of it 6th level is obtainable in 4 hours, levels over 15 never really added much to the server and quite honestly when it was easy to get over 15th here without DM help, there were a lot of high levels who could swing any situation one way or the other who quite frankly didn't deserve that much power in the framework the server operates in. There's too much PvP, political skull bashing and posturing to allow for the sort of gold and power a 20th level cleric would be wielding and keep things fun for anyone under 12th lvl.
If you're sitting in your tower at 15th level, you probably did some awesome stuff and are telling people what adventures they'll be going on and making decisions that affect everyone. You're not going to get 15th level or a tower unless you're awesome and have been piling up the allies and making a lot of fun for other players for a long time. If you're that awesome the DMs will reward you with power beyond any 18th level archmage could imagine (and if you're really awesome you could be doing that at 3rd level in your tower).
Reputation, owed favors from every PC, hiring a 12th level halforc barbarian to follow you everywhere to make sure you don't get ganked by rivals. That's where it's at.
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Now that would be an excellent disclaimer in the starting area when warning new players the server is "low-level." It makes it sound even more like D&D, where anything is possible. And I do believe it, as I've seen enough DMs on the week or so I've been switching between usual server and COA.
I am working on a new toon with some heavy BG and goals; I'll just have to avoid "XP-trains" where the vets only seem to care about your success OOC or IC when it can negatively affect their own XP and gold rewards. ;-)
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"I am working on a new toon with some heavy BG and goals; I'll just have to avoid "XP-trains" where the vets only seem to care about your success OOC or IC when it can negatively affect their own XP and gold rewards. "
It seems your experience differs from almost everyone else's.
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"It seems your experience differs from almost everyone else's."
Aye; I would think so. ROFL!
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I'm going to comment on this, being somewhat of a 'vet' myself.
The first point you make about not having high level characters isn't necessarily true, at least not when point in the context of CoA. We do have high level characters, but those are the characters who are level 10+. On a low level server like this, where achieving levels can be difficult and takes time, hitting those 10+ levels will certainly make you feel epic. As a side note, you don't need to hit level 13 to take a level of AA because the DMs have removed all mechanical requirements for prestige classes, meaning you could take it at any level provided you have an accepted application.
On another side note, applications aren't just for veteran players, even if it asks what characters you've recently played. Nowadays, you'll have a plethora of people offering to help you with application writing, including DMs, making it much easier for new players to have applications accepted then before.
I'll admit that finding information about certain mechanical changes to the game and things like that could probably be difficult for new players, but like the DMs have said in this very thread, they'd love to hear what important information people think should be more accessible. I have a feeling people are working on this right now.
The part about veterans just grinding quests to get gold and xp makes me a bit sad. Its unfortunate you got that impression, but I truly believe that those types of players are the minority. If you give the server a chance, you'll hopefully find a lot of players who are willing to RP during a quest, to give newbies tips on how to survive better, and just to generally help you have a fun time on the server.
As for the metagaming… well, its true that a lot of us have done these quests over and over. However! There are probably three times as many quests that you haven't done as ones that you have. I read somewhere that there are over 50 quests on the server, maybe more now. Sure, a lot of people stick to the tried and true quests they know they'll survive, but there are also a lot of players willing to go out and try those more rarely done quests, even if they're a little more difficult or harder to get to.
Also, the main reason we have quests is for people to get together and adventure with their friends without having a DM online, otherwise the only things people would be doing is chatting in the guildhall or waiting for DMs to get online. Quests are about as fun as the people doing them make them. Find some players that have a questing style that you enjoy, become friends with them and continue to quest with them when time allows. If you get stuck with a group thats just grinding and you don't like that, try finding some other people to quest with.
In closing, while I personally disagree with your points on making the server have epic levels, I hope that the experience you had with certain players doesn't give you the wrong impression. There are many players here who don't care about grinding, they just care about interacting with other players and telling fun stories. Stick around for a while and maybe you'll meet some of them.
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Also, the main reason we have quests is for people to get together and adventure with their friends without having a DM online, otherwise the only things people would be doing is chatting in the guildhall or waiting for DMs to get online.
Right. Which is what I fear happens when you hit 13th level (and was told IG). As somebody else wrote, when I am in my "tower" at 15th level, I will be telling others about my adventures; but as a player (and IC too really), I'd want to be out adventuring still. I would think even moreso if I've been RPing that toon for months and really enjoyed him.
But! As many have said, that is not the end. And I imagine it will take me a very long time (and likely v5 and a restart) to get there. I have my other server when I feel like leveling epic PCs and doing impossibly epic quests. ;-)
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One last note, is that while its not mandatory or anything, its encouraged that very high level characters, particularly if they have achieved there goals and have done a lot of epic things on the server, that they retire their characters and start a fresh concept so that they can continue to push out new stories into the server. Not everyone wants or needs to do this, but it does help if you run into the problem of being 15th level, sitting in your tower telling stories. And by retire, I don't mean just stop playing, I mean talking to a DM about finding an interesting way to end your characters that is both enjoyable and satisfactory to you. For example, maybe your 15th level wizard who has spent his entire time in the server researching portals could have an event where he must sacrifice his life to close down a portal to the underworld, or something like that. While ending a character you've played for a long time can be tough, its much better than that character stagnating to the point that you don't even like them anymore.
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One last note, is that while its not mandatory or anything, its encouraged that very high level characters, particularly if they have achieved there goals and have done a lot of epic things on the server, that they retire their characters and start a fresh concept so that they can continue to push out new stories into the server. Not everyone wants or needs to do this, but it does help if you run into the problem of being 15th level, sitting in your tower telling stories. And by retire, I don't mean just stop playing, I mean talking to a DM about finding an interesting way to end your characters that is both enjoyable and satisfactory to you. For example, maybe your 15th level wizard who has spent his entire time in the server researching portals could have an event where he must sacrifice his life to close down a portal to the underworld, or something like that. While ending a character you've played for a long time can be tough, its much better than that character stagnating to the point that you don't even like them anymore.
You see.. I am glad I came to these forums with my thoughts! That is how it should end. You weave a story with your character and you end it in high-fashion! There has been some very excellent feedback here people; thank-you! :-)
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The problem that seems to be happening is, the risk went up (New AI) but the reward stayed the same
So now the risk is not worth the reward on alot of things
This, I would like to suggest that rewards for quests be rexamined to reflect the challenges of the new AI.
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All I've heard on COA is once I hit lvl 13 there are no more quests. I sit around in my tower and wait for a DM to make something for me. That is, if I have not pissed them all off at one time or the other, inadvertently, because I am just a faceless player, with nothing but my keyboard to communicate with. And then, only until the server is wiped again anyway. Then I get to start all over grinding the same quests I've already done and probably have little patience to not metagame just a little during.
Just reading through this and this quote here jumped out at me. I'll admit to having stopped reading the thread after this so this may have been said in some form already. While it may be at some lvl the scripted quests stop, it is not true that you should be sitting around your tower to wait for anything. If you are, you have noone to blame but yourself.
At that level you should have the ability to create something for yourself. You have probably amassed some form of wealth, be it power or gold, why not use that to get others involved with some plot you started? Who says you have to sit around and wait on the DMs, why not pick a faction to oppose for IC reasons (I am sure that no matter who you play, there is at least one faction in game your character should hate). Do something about this faction, try to stop them at every turn. Cause them no end of frustration by dragging every new adventurer you can find, and veteran ones at that, and use your power or wealth to send them against that faction.
Try to do something with your character other than waiting for some DM event, if you are doing anything like above, I am sure the DMs will notice and the more you involve a larger section of the player base, the more likely it is you will have a chance at continued growth of your character. edited in And if for some reason you feel all your plotting and action may go unnoticed, there is the Player Plot forum.
[/rambling] [/2cents]
edited in Also reading the beginning of this, perhaps we as the players could add a "New Player OOC guide to City of Arabel" and put it up on the forum/wiki. We could slap together valid links to info, or even the info itself that could help streamline the new join process to the server. Just an idea.
/edited once
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However, COA would need a few things for me to continue playing here.
- Veteran players that do not metagame. Try pretending you haven't done the same quests a hundred times, esp. when there is a new player in the party.
There are several reasons why this is not entirely feasible. Firstly, CoA is very difficult for most players. Many quests are so deadly, that pretending you don't know the right tactics will just lead to TPK in most cases. Secondly, it's just not that easy to pretend you're here for the first time.. Especially if you're with a group you've done this quest before. So like only a week ago you've bragged in the tavern about slaying a rakshasa and the next day you go like "ooh.. i've never been here before. i wonder what awaits us in this dungeon."
Lastly, i've grown to hate and avoid the Brothel quest, because every time i do it with a group, some roleplayer absolutely has to repeat those silly "snake" puns! :D -
Metagaming a quest you've done 4625376348556362 times is just gonna happen, fact. Sometimes, it's more obvious than other times, though… ahemwarehousebossahem
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@Khamal:
Metagaming a quest you've done 4625376348556362 times is just gonna happen, fact. Sometimes, it's more obvious than other times, though… ahemwarehousebossahem
Theres "metagaming" and theres "metagaming"
being less than one's usual sparkle because you've cleared KAz's/Mathhew's shrine thousands of times, and have no more creative ways to chat about is one thing…
and then theres the people who prep with the perfect buffs cast just before the trigger for the boss.
Thats conscious metagaming and theres no excuse for it.