New Player Perspective
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@Khamal:
Metagaming a quest you've done 4625376348556362 times is just gonna happen, fact. Sometimes, it's more obvious than other times, though… ahemwarehousebossahem
…and then theres the people who prep with the perfect buffs cast just before the trigger for the boss.
Thats conscious metagaming and theres no excuse for it.This is the metagaming I was referring to. Esp. when followed up by a timely and silent tactical retreat for a spell that's gonna blow the 3rd level noobie and her awesome new full-plate she just got last quest into the shaft (of light)!–well, the full-plate into their backpacks. ;-)
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You have played NWN before so the mechanics are nothing new so when you see someone buffing up did you ask them why? I still do this when i quest or ask them if they are nervous you are coming across to me at least as wanting everything given to you.
If you don't know ask if you want to live ask for help,it's not that hard to do.
On a caravan no one cared about your character why would they?
The goal of the "quest" is to get the oxen and goods to the merchant if you were given the job of keeping them alive and did so im sure if that group went on another caravan your character would be welcomed along as an experienced guard.
Did you role play on the journey talk to others in the group ask them about the area's or where you were going..you know general conversation that show you want to rp with these players?Barely time to survive on a quest.
Most groups will make time for role play as it is questing where you will meet most characters that can become in character friends,if your not role playing due to rushing try talking and slowing down the quest it's easy to do and if your adding fun to a quest with role play then other characters will try there best to keep you alive.
And no if your character dies because you say nothing and run into trouble all the time then they icly will probably treat you like an idiot,but oc if one of the vets offer you some advice on how to survive they aren't talking down to you they are trying to help.
I and others go out of there way to help new players but if a new player comes across as not wanting help or as being not interested in role playing then you will only get help if you ask.
Try asking in character and see what happens. -
I personally find RP knowing once I hit lvl 13 my toon is finished outside of some extraordinary intervention, somewhat limiting.
This is the problem. You have to consider that reaching the high levels, aka 13, is hardly a goal for anyone that plays. Think about this: in my 4 years here I can tell one, maybe two characters who have hit lvl 13. And that's not because it's difficult, but because grinding quests is something that a player playing on CoA has no interest for. No content after lvl 13 is not limiting A) because nobody reaches lvl 13 and B) there is so much to do aside from scripted quests that you will hardly notice the difference. In the end you are not here to grind your way to epic levels. You are here to share your story with the other players. Focus on that, and trust me you will not even notice the lack of epic content.
So if some vets told you it's a problem that when you are lvl 13 you have nothing to do, they must not have been that much of vets, since it happens like … never.
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@Amy:
You have played NWN before so the mechanics are nothing new so when you see someone buffing up did you ask them why?
No, I knew why they were buffing. As a new player (I guess), I just try to go with the flow. I haven't felt comfortable forcing veteran players to take longer grinding their quest to RP out with me some ridiculous question, "What's going on? You hear something in there? Maybe you should listen first before you waste all those potions (then go listen while their duration starts running). The "quest-giver" tell you where to expect trouble? Huh-huh-huh?" (I am, of course, exaggerating how it would feel. ;-))
Anyway, it's something I will change, as this thread still gives me insight into where I am going wrong.
@Amy:
On a caravan no one cared about your character why would they?
I was talking about me as a player–I guess just trying to be clever with word play =/. It was all OOC information; none of it RPed. And again, to be the 1 out of the party of 10, new to the server, as if I can't be bothered to listen to them... I would feel uncomfortable being IC (interrupting them) like, "sits down and waits for the dead silence to end, walks up to "so-and-so" You know, I got to thinking here, while you was communicatin' with the dead or whatever: what if they run off? Should I whip them? ... and so forth; as a new player, I find deferring to how the veterans want to do something (IC/OOC/no-RP/w/e) is probably the safest method of making sure other players.. "the real people playing".... umm, like me and want to play with me (at least until I see which ones are worth liking :twisted:). It is very easy to give people the wrong impression when all you are is some typed words. :? (That is probably why I am so long-winded [which likely help little, lol] and overuse smilies! =P)
However! I am not sure here on this RP server this is a good approach to take. I think I keep hearing the same advice repeated in different word arrangements. It is not one to be noticed IC, anyway; or maybe even be taken as a serious player who wants to RP. I think if I went back and edited my original post, it'd look a lot different. I can see why COA still has a consistent following.
Now, I just wish I had thought to make sure I had the CD Key I've been playing on my desktop on this laptop too before leaving town. ( I just wanna play for an hour? Okay, 30 mins? One quest? Please? Okay, just a drink and a chat in the tavern? C'mon! :x )
:-)
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You do need to calm down about the whole ''level 13'' thing, that would be my advise to you. If your aim is to get to level 13 and beyond you're playing on the wrong server honestly.
CoA is a roleplay server, just concentrate on creating an interesting story based around your character, making it fun for as many people as possible in the process and you'll be fine. If you have any questions you want to ask a DM directly please feel free to PM me and I'll do my best to answer.
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Like CaekMcSnuggles says, you should not focus on levels at all. Many people, myself included, have done amazing things with their characters, including rising to a position of prominance in a dm faction, and wielding massive influence and power over the setting while never raising above lvl 6-7.
My mage guilder when he was named councillor, and put next in line for the position of Guild Master was only lvl 5 just to state an example. My PurpleDragon/Harper rose to the position of Senior Harper, ran a large spy network, started a war after stealing war wizard secrets, and in general influenced things on a large scale while at his hight, and he never made lvl 7.
Focus on creating a compelling character that is involved in a compelling story and involve others in it, and you will start to get attention from both prominant pcs and dms and then you will start to appriciate the magic of CoA.
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One of my most famous characters was promoted to an advisor position within a highly esteemed noble house and was right in the middle of a conflict between Harpers and the nobility. His hand was deep in many mixing pots of information and goodies and was quite easily the most powerful character I'd ever had politically. I only ever got him to level 7 and he was a sorcerer. Because of his allies, people didn't mess with him much, but on the rare occasion they did, the little scrawny level 7 illusionist (who didn't use PhK because he was not a killer, which limited my spells to mostly buffs and debuffs, not much offense) had several bigger, beefier allies (PC and NPC) to back him.
Levels mean absolutely nothing. It's all about your roleplay, your ability to roleplay your stats, and the path you carve through the module.
The more people you get involved with your character, the more allies your character makes, the more things your character and his/her allies do together will make your character more powerful than level 13's or higher. The more you involve, the better for not only your character, but for the others involved and the server as a whole. -
Well, I gave it another shot.
And the bottom line is: I can't stand dying on my usual server where it is only an hour inconvenience, but here, it is HOURS of my time wasted. And while it is kind of you to put the party number and levels on a quest, I often only see what players are putting on a sending, but have little doubt the quest I just died twice was for 1st or 2nd level. If it is, I don't know what method you are using to come up with these… maybe just the "biggest range as possible" method, but certainly not anything I am accustomed to from D&D. If the boss at the end of my module is 10th level, maybe a party of 5th levels can take him, but I don't care if you have 20 1st levels, the boss'll just great cleave through the lot of them (and letting a 1st level join the 5th level party is just cruel).
So I spent several hours thinking about this joker I just deleted, an hour making him, and over 10 hours RPing him and having fun with some people; and I wander out to some desert at 2nd level, getting level drained, one-hit killed twice (almost died a third time because I stablized and someone kindly healed me to one HP in a fear aura, ty), lose all my XP (I had to run around finding an axle for 30 mins for the sixth time to get!), get no reward for quest even because nobody can pick a lock with the DCs down there (and I spent more on supplies than we had collected and we were at end fighting our way back out)....
And there was nothing I could do different. There was no metagaming, we had great tactics, 5 ppl in the party (until another died halfway through and respawned in Arabel because of lag apparently), I had gotten maybe 300 gold from previous adventures, had max AC for my level, the best gear I could afford, was engaging after the 60 HP fighter, etc., blah-blah-blah.
There's nothing to be said to change the fact that that is not fun. It sucks. All the RP I did with that character makes it suck so bad, it hurts me as a person/player physically. I am trying to escape suckiness, hurt, and reality when I logon a play NWN. And, seriously, if I ran a D&D campaign and killed off two-three players every single quest they'd never let me a run a campaign! I should not have been allowed on that quest. The crazed pixie quest I did with that toon the other day, two ppl died there. I would've, but I stopped following people when my strength was drained to 3 and crawled out of there after they finished and another death (and we didn't get jack for that quest either--a few GP to cover expenses).
If I decide to make another toon for COA after the irritation subsides, it will be one that never does a single quest and just sits around talking to ppl. Though, I don't know how well that will turn out, as I found most people really didn't care to sit around talking with this latest toon who couldn't even afford dye to give the appearance he wasn't just created and only did one life-threatening quest.
Maybe all the vets have the 50+ quests figured out, know what levels to take to which ones, etc.; or maybe they all do the 50+ quests and die so many times they are still 3rd level with a badass reputation, but I don't have the patience for that nonsense--dying a hundred times so I can metagame which quests I do. We can talk about how levels and loot aren't what COA is about, but I don't know how anyone could stand RPing a character that every-other-time he steps out the door to earn a few pitily gold, he's gonna get one-hitted by some crap he shouldn't even see until he's a few levels higher. (I don't need to read the argument that that makes a realistic gaming world... I am not talking about scaling everything to levels here [because I hate games that do that]… I am talking about being given a quest that is too high-level, that several of the enemies will kill me in one round no matter what I do [sit invis and do nothing? {fun, fun}].)
I could probably go on forever with all these short paragraphs of irritation… so I'll just stop. Good luck with your server; maybe I'll stop back in after awhile and see if it's a little more PLAYER friendly.
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It sounds to me like your idea of immersion and your idea of fun are intrinsically at odds with each other. Anyway the part where your character was pissed off about someone stealing his dagger and was trying to get it back was entertaining. Come back anytime!
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@H:
It sounds to me like your idea of immersion and your idea of fun are intrinsically at odds with each other.
I'm sorry: I don't quite understand what you mean by this statement? I don't feel immersed in anything when I am constantly dying on quests. And I am not having any fun either.
@H:
Anyway the part where your character was pissed off about someone stealing his dagger and was trying to get it back was entertaining. Come back anytime!
And there I was completely immersed and having a ton of fun. For every irritating moment there is at least one great one. Thanks again for that!
Maybe if I just make a character that just crafts, RPs with other players, and goes on quests invis the whole time (maybe charging a small fee to Chronicle their adventure.. okay, maybe they'd buff and heal too ;-)…
sigh =/
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"Radical" suggestions and ideas from a different point of view are valuable in CoA developement!
Server avarage level has been discussed numerous times over the years and have decided to keep it as it is. This is something the majority of the community agrees with and it's highly unlikely it's going to change.
We're currently developing a whole new world of quests. Meanwhile we'd like to encourage players to explore the "rarely done" quests and give us feedback on generating a better replay value for quests and how to improve the old quests. We also hope to balance their challenge/reward ratio which has swayed a bit after our new AI was added. Feedback and mechanical help from the community has helped us greatly, but it will likely take some time before a perfect balance and replay value can be achieved, if ever.
Your suggestion for better instructions and mechanical change documentation is really helpful and we're working on it. Perhaps instead of a downloadable document, we'll start by including all the necessary information in the starting area. I'm not sure if domains can be changed post character creation but nontheless having the information IG helps both new- and old players.
Thanks for your feedback and welcome back to CoA!
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what is retarded is when your 100xp away from 9 and you die to a bug and your sol
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Well, I gave it another shot.
…. And while it is kind of you to put the party number and levels on a quest, I often only see what players are putting on a sending..Valid point. If char X makes sending, and when people show up, they say "I'll go arrange it with our sponsor", then yes, someone new would not have a opportunity to "click and see stats for quest". Nor would they see who the quest-giver was for their own knowledge.Perhaps when we get the Journal message saying we have a quest, it should say "Received quest: FindTheThief from: ScholarAmy lvls:3-8 pty:35". That would give you a indication of how difficult it may be relative to you.
The crazed pixie quest I did with that toon the other day, two ppl died there. I would've, but I stopped following people when my strength was drained to 3 and crawled out of there after they finished and another death
Thats just playing smart. Engaging enemies when your STR is 3 and you can neither do damage or move is not the smartest. Unless you have some kind of no-retreat oath or are sacrificing yourself to save others, I can't imagine why you'd do anything except keep well to the back when in that condition. If you have been doing such, it can explain the diffculty, you've had?
If I decide to make another toon for COA after the irritation subsides, it will be one that never does a single quest and just sits around talking to ppl. Though, I don't know how well that will turn out, as I found most people really didn't care to sit around talking with this latest toon who couldn't even afford dye to give the appearance he wasn't just created and only did one life-threatening quest.
It's been done. Theres enough non-combat "delivery/errand" quests so you can hit lvl 5 with no danger, and get past it with minimal danger, although it'll take a long time. You'll have plenty of gold, as you wont be needing gear or consumables.
I am talking about being given a quest that is too high-level, that several of the enemies will kill me in one round no matter what I do [sit invis and do nothing? {fun, fun}].)
Ahh, the meat of the matter, I think. Difficulty. As you point out, scaling doesnt neccessarily work well.
COA does have its own scaling system. If you go in with max lvls/max part #, a quest has far more difficult enemies than if you go in with minimums. so if you, at lvl 2, go on that 2-6 quest with a bunch of 5-6's… Well, it will be very dangerous.
is it metagaming to see you have 14hp and every else has 60, so you might want to hang back and throw rocks?
well, yes, but I believe it's acceptable. Because, as I think you pointed out in another post, this is a 15-yr old game, we dont have player counts of 55/55 like we used to. Quests need to have a spread, otherwise it's not possible to find party members.Perhaps your lvl 2 fighter can be all full of bluster when you start off and see pixies, but then when you see the enormous Spiders, his face can blanch and he then quickly (damn quiickly!) heads to the back. If you (OOC you) see disparity between yourself and your quest-mates, then perhaps even be thinking your might be doing such, and don't be the one to open doors.
If anything, there have been recent suggestions about widening the spread, letting lower/higher levels go along, even if they get minimal XP, just so it's something to do.
if you have a better idea of how to enable "Mixed levels" to go on quests together, and still make it a little challenging for the highers, as opposed to it just ending up being "levelling for their buddies", please let us know.
And consider what I mentioned above, about how you might control your "toon" (i HATE that word) differently, and give us another chance.
Well, if you play US EST late-night give us another chance. Otherwise, see ya. -
I could probably go on forever with all these short paragraphs of irritation… so I'll just stop. Good luck with your server; maybe I'll stop back in after awhile and see if it's a little more PLAYER friendly.
CoA doesn't sound like your kind of server.
We all died. We were all noobs here once (when it was alot harder!) and I have been where you are.
Learn your play style, learn your favorite class (casters for me), and learn to use consumables. Stick to the 1-5 quests, go with a good group and don't be a hero.
We have all the sympathy in the world for you, but if CoA is just too challenging, then this isn't the place for you (and thats ok).
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Perhaps when we get the Journal message saying we have a quest, it should say "Received quest: FindTheThief from: ScholarAmy lvls:3-8 pty:35". That would give you a indication of how difficult it may be relative to you.
The would be exellent! Also, is it an acceptable practice when you are trying to RP and hint around if you are maybe too low level, to just ask OOC if you will survive in your role. I think I read about how I could hang back and throw rocks, but I don't want to play my armor/tower shield wielding toon (I don't dislike any words, but agree that is one more suited to action play) with a sling on quests, I want to find one he can play his role and impress the right people.
If you have been doing such, it can explain the diffculty, you've had?
Of course not. My difficulty has always been approaching an enemy and just getting pulverized in one hit. The under the desert quest I died on, I was doing fine, taking no-little damage, impressing people perhaps, then we turn a figurative corner and I find myself in the fugue.
It's been done. Theres enough non-combat "delivery/errand" quests so you can hit lvl 5 with no danger, and get past it with minimal danger, although it'll take a long time.
I will have to find them. I've only found four that get me to 2nd level and having to do them a 7th time will be a great test of my patience.
So if you, at lvl 2, go on that 2-6 quest with a bunch of 5-6's… Well, it will be very dangerous.
is it metagaming to see you have 14hp and every else has 60, so you might want to hang back and throw rocks?
well, yes, but I believe it's acceptable.First of all, I will just not go if I have to drop my blade and throw rocks like some halfling for a quest. LOL! So if increasing the party gap is only beneficial to vets or people playing rock-thrower-roles and misleading to people trying to make a warrior, well… that is good to know.
And there was only one 5th level in that party (well, I don't know what level he was, but he had almost 70 HP), the sending said it was for lvls 1-5, and I seemed to be the average level from all accounts (and was very close to 3rd when I started; though killing 20-30 enemies didn't get him that little he needed, dying to one enemy took away almost half of his XP :evil: )
Quests need to have a spread, otherwise it's not possible to find party members.
As I said, I already know maybe 10 quests and now know I won't do some until I am higher level anyway. So allowing me to take a first level is not really benefitting me as a new player, except if the goal is to frustrate me as a player and teach me how to better metagame said quests.
if you have a better idea of how to enable "Mixed levels" to go on quests together, and still make it a little challenging for the highers, as opposed to it just ending up being "levelling for their buddies", please let us know.
That's all it seems to be now imo (that party it was like the one 70-HP fighter was leveling us, despite it being a lot of fun RP until me and another died an un-leveled). The party level in the journal idea was excellent. However, I would add that in paranthesis there is a more realistic spread, based on D&D and the CR's there. Or, perhaps catering to both viewpoints, you could let an ever larger spread join (for little to no XP for those further from range), but actually give the spread as what it really should be to not die an inordinate amount of times.
NWN is not a difficult game to me. I am not dying because I don't know what I am doing (though affording consumables has yet been an option). I am used to an incredibly difficult PW action server. I am dying because I am in places I shouldn't be (yes, not knowing something, but OOC). If I don't metagame, I will die there again. I am not seeking death; I always try to make sure I am adequate level IC and OOC. I play very cautiously, though it is difficult discovering a place is too difficult when you are just one-hitted. And difficult getting out of there afterwards, esp. by yourself since everyone still was going to press on. I just want to RP the same character without dying a bunch of times, before I am even 3rd level. I want to go on quests getting noticed with my blade…
I will have to make a different kind of character and just watch everybody else die (which is really my point... it is like every quest I do at least someone dies, most of the time two-people). I don't think that is difficult, or immersive, or realistic... I just think there is something wrong. And as people have pointed out, it's not like the rewards are worth that risk... yet you must quest some, as that's what most I've met are doing.
And I do play late in US EST. You will see me on eventually I imagine, when I find the desire to ROLE-up another character idea. :-)
A quick question: there are no req's for PrC except application? I mean, I don't need the feats, or skill ranks, or alignment req'd, as long as I have a good enough idea the DMs will allow it? I know I saw somewhere a list of what was req'd for PrC before app. and it mentioned some RP or BG things, but nothing of the req's I am used to when building characters with PrC.
Thank-you again for the feedback. I am sure I'll be here soon about something else (probably irritated after a long day and lying about how I'm outta here). Just ignore that and keep the feedback coming as much as you are willing. ;-)
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Its definitely acceptable to ask a party leader or someone making a sending what the level range for that quest is OOCly. The dying thing is getting annoying, I'm sure, but part of that could be because your parties aren't making use of scouts or anything like that. Part of that is probably because many of the players already know OOCly whats ahead, but if you suggest IC that maybe we should send the scout out first, you might find yourself a little more prepared for these encounters.
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Also, a quick note on PartyChat before the quest is actually taken:
"Hi, I'm somewhat new, can we not race through the quest dialog, or quest areas, so I can see whats what" -
As a player who came in thinking I knew better eight years ago, I see where you are coming from. You likely have good ideas as well (though the level range is never going to change) but if you don't sit back and ease your thoughts into the community they will never be heard. Thats a mistake I made back in my early days, so I think I am pretty qualified to give you this advice. With that out of your way, I'm going to break down a few things for you so you can make a truly informed choice on whether or not you should play here;
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The level range is never going to change. Classes become extremely unbalanced after 12, and optimized builds become even more powerful. Thats not what this server is about. Also, loot is available so that a savvy level five rogue can beat a level 10 fighter or cleric, as an example. That couldn't happen if the level range was wider.
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There is good and not so good players on CoA. I chose to call them not so good because I believe that every player that maybe grinds quests and powers there way up to twelve is just someone who hasn't fully grasped the spirit of CoA. The fact that they keep coming back for more means that something attracts them to the server, so I see it as eventually a matter of time before they get involved in ways they never have and catch the bug. Some are just stubborn, but thats their choice. As a new player, you are going to see these people more often then not, because they are the ones doing low level quests over and over, and usually looking for someone to tag along with them. I suggest responding to sendings that say "hey, come hear about this faction, or I'm looking for information on this thing or that thing," and so on. These are the type of people that are going to lead you to what is great about CoA. But, there is also what some consider a downside, which is point three.
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CoA moves at a slow pace. Thats why we don't really care that you can't get past level 12 very often. I would be lying if I said we all didn't hate dying, but in reality its going to happen, so that also slows things down. Big server shaking events take time. There is no real instant gratification on CoA, everything you do is just a building block. If you are all about the story and the journey, you probably think this is a plus. I certainly do. If you are all about being epic in a week, CoA is not for you.
You are one hundred percent right about the information organization, I know I spent hours going through it and it was easier to read back then. I think people have just gotten lazy on the upkeep of it because new players are so rare these days. That being said, most of the rest of what you pointed out as a fault we consider a feature of CoA. You either like it, or you don't. My suggestion is to try it for a while, stick with a character whether or not he dies 50 times in a week, and build on the potential relationships you come across in the begining. If you really do like the realistic side of CoA, you will find it only gets better the deeper you delve.
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leveling comes faster with OOC and IC friends. Join people's concepts (like mine! :P) and you'll find leveling to be much easier if that is your goal.
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I will be (and already am) sticking around. Please, please just ignore all my frustrated rants! :oops: LOL.
Though, it IS fitting in this thread subject I started. I'll try and refrain next time I get frustrated, knowing the things that frustrate me about this server (most of them) are why I am logging on the very next day (tbph, hours later).
leveling comes faster with OOC and IC friends. Join people's concepts (like mine! :P) and you'll find leveling to be much easier if that is your goal.
Leveling is not my goal. Having said that, neither is being deleveled. LOL.
I have thought a few times how much more fun and easy it could be if I was starting a concept with another (or other people). Of course, I try to make my concepts rely on finding other likeminded people; and I am trying to discover some means to go about them without announcing IG or on forums: "Hey, you know a priest of mask; I believe I am the catalyst to resurrecting the great lord right here in Arabel!"
I wonder though (though I have fixed broken lvl 4 character [ty again] and am currently very happy with her), is there somewhere on forums or w/e where we can set up such a thing? I mean, it seems it MIGHT be silly to announce on thread: "I'd like to make a blackguard of Mask and was wondering OOC if anyone wants to make a priest(ess) he can swear loyalty to? (And maybe another person a tank-type with similar goals!)" Well, if for no other reason the whole server is going to know OOC my toon (Dzladimici) was a sociopathic liar. ;-)