Multiclass v Pureclass Theme Discussion
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While i utterly despise the notion of Classes and would prefer to see a pure skill-based systems, Its not happening in NWN…
What about, in keeping with the idea of getting perks as you hit certain levels, and also the notion of "nerfing lower levels"....
Something along the lines of a certain particular Platemail with nice bonuses needing 8 ranks of discipline... or using a wand needs spelllevel+4 ranks in either UMD or Spellcraft... etc.
Sort of like what was mention of needing to be that lvl 10 fighter to wear it, but make it instead be based on the person having had learning in certain areas.
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Then they'd be giving up 1 BAB and sacrificing an entire attack per round for that stuff. They'd get 1 use of bard song per day…Why shouldn't that be their choice?
so free healing from spells +1 ab from bard song +2 saves from spell craft,arcane wand and scroll usage tumble as a class skill and UMD.
Because they took one bard level.
So really they give up 1 attack per round made at there lowest AB lets say maxed out strength build so what 7? they give up one attack made at AB 7 in order to gain all the above.
And you think they should keep the extra ac and everything else that the current single classed fighter gets for taking the extra attack and maybe 4 more hitpoints.
I have to disagree with you on that one. -
From my standpoint I don't see why some popular builds have stopped being used entirely, like the good old rogue-fighter, fighter-barbarian, even barbarian /bard , notorious one I know..
Thing is the new pure class bonuses are so sweet that people tend to think multiclassing would gimp their build when it really wouldn't make o much a difference, but rather an at least as viable choice. Its all about the concept, imagine a fighter-bard leading his minions in battle with chanting, from all I know some of the new bard songs are easily used by such build even with bard being the lower levels of the build. Healing? Rage song? All great for that build, and you get so much more out of bard levels as previously mentioned.
It is a matter of concept, yes that build may loose in a melee one on one to the pure fighter, or will have a harder time getting that awesome +1 full plate but leaving items out of it, it is not a bad build and would greatly fit a leader's concept. I don't think the bonuses are flawed, maybe barbarian bonuses, but still aren't some of the new barb bonuses useable with a multiclass? I mostly mean the totems, I really don't know if you have to be a pure barbarian to get one.
Same goes for ranger, though here things are more balanced I think, you have pure rangers doing their "nature" stuff, good tracking, powerful companion, and you can easily go ranger/rogue, still getting a lesser companion and somewhat decent tracking, but also sneak attacks, UMD, tumble, trap disabling that is almost as good as a pure rogue's and so much more. So the two builds are rangerish both, but focus on different things. Still rogue/rangers have become a rarity, even though they 're still a very cool and useful build.
I think the new bonuses for pure classes only made people choose the sure path of pure classing, so less people are experimenting with different builds, since you cannot go wrong with a pure class nowadays if you know the basic mechanics of the game. Players have a concept, and mostly want to be also mechanically effective, there is less chance now to go for a build that may not be as good as they had imagined (but can also be a lot funner and all around better eventually). Then again that is what character testing modules are for…
All in all I really have no opinion on the new bonuses, only wanted to through a few thoughts out there. I hear pathfinder version of DnD is so good, maybe it could be a good example to follow if possible?
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The only reason i can think of for them not being used is that the +1 fullplate and tower shields are harder to get.
Not a massive issue if your a cleric but for a multiclass they are fairly rare now i haven't seen any full plate for awhile now that wasn't fighter only,couple of shields but not many. -
@Deadlock:
I agree with Nikko, people cross-class because of "top heavy" classes like fighters giving so many free feats. The solution is not pure class bonuses but later level bonuses for a class and more encouragement to stay pure classed that is balanced with the benefits of going multiclass.
This is very difficult to do though. Say we put something great for someone with 10 fighter levels, there is nothing to stop people then going fighter 10/ bard 1 for 10 spellcraft, arcane wands/scrolls, bard song, etc. Maybe we need to nerf low levels of a class too.
I can't think of a time where someone added one level of bard for the extra goodies. In fact, I don't see this epedemic of OP class builds which everyone is scared of.
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You haven't seen Jagged's vault then!
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Its cause everyone scared of pure class barbarians now. Nerf nerf nerf.
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I don't think any build is too OP right now. Some builds work better against X or Y, but overall there's nothing really broken.
My only real point was that this wouldn't be as much of a discussion if class perks were spread more evenly across the level range and some class perks scaled (like rogue sneak attack damage) with level. I think the DMs have done a great job with what they had to work with to even the playing field for some pure classes, but part of the issue is with v3 D&D. The stuff that works, like tracking, fighter will saves and animal companions; all scale with level, but they were added by the DMs, not part of core NWN.
Who invented a game that sometimes when you level up you get better at bandaging and riding a horse and some levels you get bandaging and riding plus new spells, a free feat, a class feat and a new companion all at once? I could have actually used cantrips when I was 2nd lvl… or maybe a free feat at 4th. But no. Happy 5th level.
Barbarians aren't too OP... barbarians backed by a semi-competent cleric or wizard are. Or that can use potions correctly... or have the right totems... are... well ok. They used to get HP and AB and uncanny dodge and that's it until they were 11th level and do it wearing a loin cloth. They needed a break.
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The more I play DOTA-like games, the more I see parallels with other multiplayer games, specifically RPGs and more specifically NWN.
To reiterate Nikko, "I don't think any build is too OP right now." The game is about picking what you want to be good at and building to excel in that field. There's no such thing as a hero that's good at everything. An overpowered character is one that is so dominant in his field with minimal investment, he's still able to rival other heroes in their chosen field.
A character designed solely for DPS isn't going to be a good tank. A wizard designed purely for maximum disabling DC's isn't going to be able to do as much damage as a sorcerer with evocations. A bard with maximum heal powers is going to be shit in a fight without his heals, compared to the barb/bard who is a one-man wrecking ball.
As far as barbarians go, I think their rage should be made much more significant, since its the core class feature. Give them like 40% DR and +4 damage. That's fine by me, it's a temporary buff that should be very noteworthy. They just shouldn't have any special combat abilities outside of raging. But when they're raging, man everyone better be scared.
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@AWESOMEMAN:
The more I play DOTA-like games, the more I see parallels with other multiplayer games, specifically RPGs and more specifically NWN.
To reiterate Nikko, "I don't think any build is too OP right now." The game is about picking what you want to be good at and building to excel in that field. There's no such thing as a hero that's good at everything. An overpowered character is one that is so dominant in his field with minimal investment, he's still able to rival other heroes in their chosen field.
A character designed solely for DPS isn't going to be a good tank. A wizard designed purely for maximum disabling DC's isn't going to be able to do as much damage as a sorcerer with evocations. A bard with maximum heal powers is going to be shit in a fight without his heals, compared to the barb/bard who is a one-man wrecking ball.
As far as barbarians go, I think their rage should be made much more significant, since its the core class feature. Give them like 40% DR and +4 damage. That's fine by me, it's a temporary buff that should be very noteworthy. They just shouldn't have any special combat abilities outside of raging. But when they're raging, man everyone better be scared.
Lol at the part about the bar/bard build. That build is ridiculously broken (in an op way)
I agree with the rest of what you're saying. But here's the thing about pure class vs multiclass. People seriously need to stop thinking that 'multiclassing' is going to disappear with pure class bonuses. This is not the case. There's always going to be reasons to multiclass and always reasons to pureclass.
What should be done, in regards to pureclass, is adding more variety. Make the class, as it progresses, have a choice of which 'path' it goes down and it gets some benefits from that. That way, every fighter doesn't get will saves, discipline and disc gems. Make it so one fighter might be getting willsaves along with something else, and another might be able to use discipline gems! This adds diversity and more options to the game, and people can build based on their characters story, while still gaining some (non overpowering) benefits that diversify their fighter from fighter #269
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I got a char with a ranger\fighter\rogue.
gents she works FINE, deals with all situatoins mildly in her own way, she can track, whoop you a** with dual weapons and disable locks and traps. multi classing, more people should do it.
it's not what skills you get with high lvl it's dealing with all situations IG. -
Barbarian/Bard/Fighter
Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue
Fighter/Bard/RDD
Barbarian/Bard/RDD
Monk/Ranger/RogueYou can thank me later.
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Monk/Ranger/Rogue….
Duel kama weilding sneak attacks I assume?
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I'd much rather see selectable "backgrounds" for your highest class level at level 5.
Hm. I like this.
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Should this be moved to the V5 suggestions? And yeah selectable backgrounds sounds interesting.
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@Mr.:
I'd much rather see selectable "backgrounds" for your highest class level at level 5.
Hm. I like this.
-but takeable AFTER you hit 5, not just AT 5.
It well be that your plan is to go Ranger,ranger,ranger, bard,bard,bard,bard,bard
so you can be the Singing Woodsman, and yu want your background to be the bardy one. in that case, you'd want to take the baackground at lvl 6, when the bard was the highest/equal as opposed to 5.Or maybe it doesnt have to be your highest class.
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I like the background perk system idea, personally.
EfU totally nicked those from Fallout, anyway. Fallout probably nicked them from somewhere else.
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I don't know… it reminds me of Call of duty, can someone show me a full idea anyway of what exactly he/she sees as a perk example WHAT kind of perks there are?
Edit: black ops etc.
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I actually like the current system of pure class bonuses, even if I disagree with some of the particular choices made. Martial classes are notorious for being poor choices for single-class characters even in D&D 3.5, perhaps even more so within the current level range of the server. Some of the classes that are not very front-loaded get substantial benefits at higher levels than what you can realistically achieve on CoA, so you would by the unmodified NWN rules lose very little by multiclassing out of e.g. the monk, barbarian, paladin and ranger classes.
The current system with pure class bonuses serves to mitigate this, making multiclassing an actually difficult and interesting choice. You sacrifice some higher-level class features in exchange for versatility, flexibility and synergies. That being said, a few of the CoA bonuses I think are a little unbalancing, like the damage resistance for Barbarians. On the other hand, spellcasters get custom domains, sorcerer themes, item crafting and stuff like different summoning themes with reagents, so it kind of balances out in the end.
Another related problem that I believe has not been brought up yet is the lack of incentives to multiclass out of the pure spellcasting classes. As it stands, there's very little to gain from multiclassing out of e.g. the cleric or sorcerer classes. Whether this is a problem or not I concede is a matter of taste, but I would personally love to see some love for those weird Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge and Arcane Devotee builds. Some of this has been done with items, but newer players won't know that such items are available, so they can't possibly know at character creation what the benefits would be if they tried out something unorthodox like a spellsword type of character or a druid/sorcerer.
In conclusion, the pure class bonuses help create diversity by making more character types mechanically viable. Without the bonuses, certain classes would just work better when multiclassed, whereas now it's a real choice of what you want to achieve, both mechanically and thematically. This potential increased diversity in character builds serves to create diversity in character types, which in turn makes the server populated by more unique and hopefully flavorful and interesting characters. On the flip side of the argument, this diversity could be increased even further if there were more incentives to multiclass out of the more typical pure-class builds, such as sorcerers, clerics, and to a lesser extent wizards.
My two coppers.
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Yah. More sorc/wizard only +2 double axes, more low spell failire armours, with various drawbacks.