Two players just left.
-
I want to know why. I want to know if anything written by Sophie is true then I want to know WHY.
We will not discuss chaos brigade IC things here we're here to discuss why two players just left.Tell me, gentlemen. Why.
-
Because sometimes bad things happen to good adventurers (Or bad things to evil adventurers), and there is no carthasis or closure. Whats important to keep in mind is that you are supposed to be playing a character, and when disempowerment happens its not you as a player being targetted but the character you are playing. Its simply part of what CoA is and not everyone is suited for that kind of gameplay.
-
This is now a post about player agency, and what that means. I'm going to not go into specifics here, because I want this post to be a general post to discuss the idea of Player Agency and how it affects us as players.
When we engage in a story, it's really easy to see it as this invincible thing that only you can change. We want to see it grow, and succeed. We forget that this game is built on the interactions between players, and think they should only play a part in advancing our own story.
But the thing is, and this is important, it's not my story. It's not your story. And so when a person decides to do something that might be a detriment to our characters, we have to look at that as an opportunity instead of strictly failure. The end we want is not always the end we get, after all. In fact, I would say it rarely is (at least for me.)
The odds, in this case, were strictly stacked against us, and we lost. The fate of one PC was in the hands of people they considered friends, and those friends ended up failing to achieve their goals. It was not a happy result for team good, but it happened. I for one am completely okay with it- The twists and turns the plot took until it got to that point were amazing, and I am happy to have been a part of it. The plot that started as a "personal" plot quickly expanded to include MANY other PCs, strictly because of the actions of the PC's friends. Yes, it may have ended in mechanical failure, but the choices that led up to it were entirely IC and based nearly entirely in roleplay.
Its very easy to look at the end and say 'mechanics decided the outcome,' but I think that is pretty clearly not the case. How it would play out was entirely decided, at least to me, by the RP choices made by PCs on both sides, including the PC in question, which is how this game is played.
And so I'd like to say in conclusion that while the end is important, it's probably the least important part of any story. The journey makes the story what it is, and we as individuals are a smaller part of that story than we tend to think. CoA is not like Chess. There are no Kings and Queens. CoA is like Checkers. We're all the same, until we break through- But you're not guaranteed to make it across.
-
Because they felt self entitled to the story THEY wanted written? That's what it sounds like from her post.
She literally had a whole Mini-Plot focused around her PC. You can't play a crooked Swordswoman without some conflict.
Honestly, you can't play this game without conflict. I understand the want to play what we affectionately call "CoA Sims" but many people forget what type of world the Forgotten Realms are. You step outside in the wrong part of the city at the wrong time of day, you could die. There weren't really many people who could live life without some conflict.
So be prepared for it.
As far as the Mechanics. Thir was built pretty well. She was hard to hit and could do decent damage as a flanker. On top of this, she had one of the Most Notorious Consumable Hoarders on the server (Not that doing such is a bad thing) basically Mainlining her stuff. Yes the DM's had to make the NPC then rather difficult so she didn't walk in, Counter Attack him after his first 3 failed blows, and then walk away. Then she was upset about the fact she used many of said consumables the night before said fight, during another DM event. Though I might add, she was the one who pushed for said event, knowing it would be a tough fight, over a DM Possessed NPC's suggestion of a less Mechanical, more RP oriented solution to a problem.
Then the whole, No previous conflict.
There are certain things you can do to incite conflict without it being personally against someone. Being a strange, misunderstood Creature is one. Being a friend with Thayans (Read: Slavers) is another. Being honorless in an Honorable duel that ends in the death of a child is a third.
There's no END to the type of stuff that can cause conflict. If you don't want conflict, you can't be a Named Character essentially. You have to be that person who people can't even remember being in the gank squad (I suggest a lot of consonant's in your name).
"Where's my Agency" Her agency was when she came back from the dead on not one but TWO different Perma potential events.
"Handicap the PvPers" They kinda have been, without being too unfair. Part of this should be a common grounds thing. EVERY PvPer on this server will HAPPILY give you lessons on how at least to survive a bit in PvP. You don't have to like it. If PvP isn't your thing, this isn't the server for you plain and simple. Does that mean PvP should be the focus? No. But no one wants a server that everyone just cuddles and holds hands while progressing from one Rigged plot to another. We want a server where we can get blindsided by the betrayal of our ally. A Server where we can feel the adrenaline as we fight for our "Lives" to survive a duel to the death. A server where we can indulge our darkest sides and become the Villains we often scared ourselves with.
We need PvP to do that, so if you feel like your lack of skill is punishing you, try to get better. There's people here to help you. You have the tools, you gotta find the motivation to follow through or keep whining and miss out on the last who knows how many years we have of Arabel.
The DM's can't just pick and choose what RP they introduce to each player. Then it looks like DM favoritism. The DM's don't want to oversee You whispering in your lover's ear. They don't want to fall asleep at the keyboard watching you talk, they want to get involved too. So unless it's a meeting with an NPC or an adventure you're unlikely to get DM attention for it unless it's REALLY good. They have things they could be doing for the server or in their personal lives then watch you Spiremance.
All in all, she says her story was snuffed out because of Mechanics not because of story. What about the Chaos Brigade's Story? What makes her story more important then theirs? Sure it was an Invis Gank but the people were involving most of the server. There were Negotiations and rescue attempts and they failed, so the story progressed thus. The main thing that it takes to survive on CoA is the ability to roll with the punches. I say it a lot. For those who don't understand, It means sometimes we have to take the shitty path to paint a better overall picture for the rest of the people to enjoy. If you can come to terms with that, you'll enjoy losing probably just as much, if not more, then winning.
Tl;Dr See Hellzyeah's post. He probably said it better and I'm a jerk.
-
This is now a post about player agency, and what that means. I'm going to not go into specifics here, because I want this post to be a general post to discuss the idea of Player Agency and how it affects us as players.
When we engage in a story, it's really easy to see it as this invincible thing that only you can change. We want to see it grow, and succeed. We forget that this game is built on the interactions between players, and think they should only play a part in advancing our own story.
But the thing is, and this is important, it's not my story. It's not your story. And so when a person decides to do something that might be a detriment to our characters, we have to look at that as an opportunity instead of strictly failure. The end we want is not always the end we get, after all. In fact, I would say it rarely is (at least for me.)
The odds, in this case, were strictly stacked against us, and we lost. The fate of one PC was in the hands of people they considered friends, and those friends ended up failing to achieve their goals. It was not a happy result for team good, but it happened. I for one am completely okay with it- The twists and turns the plot took until it got to that point were amazing, and I am happy to have been a part of it. The plot that started as a "personal" plot quickly expanded to include MANY other PCs, strictly because of the actions of the PC's friends. Yes, it may have ended in mechanical failure, but the choices that led up to it were entirely IC and based nearly entirely in roleplay.
Its very easy to look at the end and say 'mechanics decided the outcome,' but I think that is pretty clearly not the case. How it would play out was entirely decided, at least to me, by the RP choices made by PCs on both sides, including the PC in question, which is how this game is played.
And so I'd like to say in conclusion that while the end is important, it's probably the least important part of any story. The journey makes the story what it is, and we as individuals are a smaller part of that story than we tend to think. CoA is not like Chess. There are no Kings and Queens. CoA is like Checkers. We're all the same, until we break through- But you're not guaranteed to make it across.
Your character experienced set backs, failure, disllusionment, defeat- yet consistently involved everyone, and made fun for everyone. The victory was not in earning the prestige class, but rather- the fun it created for everyone.
-
Thank you for your clarification.
-
I agree with many things said by both sides here, but there are two issues I wish to specifically address. Being a prisoner, and the Invis Gank.
I'm sorry. A prisoner for 1 week?
Even for the Militia there are rules where character could not prisoner for more than a day or two, to arrange a trial. There is Player Agency, and there is OOC consideration, and OOC consideration has ALWAYS won, or always should have won. Unless the vile and horrible criminal's story had mostly been told, he somehow or another usually always managed to escape, or survive to fight another day, helped by the Militia players, or with the assistance of DMs. Even if you were playing a mass-murdering genocidal necromancer, you would never be sentenced to not-play-your-character-for-a-week.
I propose we solve all plots through well-thought out invis ganks that take 5 minutes of planning. Its quick, efficient, and it works. Why bother with weeks of plotting when you can have it all done in 5 minutes? It doesn't need to be an invis gank. There is a time honored tradition of hasted lightning, or the Trueshot Knockdown spam, or any number of techniques that remove the ability of a player to react, and ends a character in a matter of seconds. In over ten years, I have never engaged in invis ganks, though I have been the victim of several.
@Rules:
If you do decide to PK, at least try to give the other player a chance to escape and they should be aware you intend to kill them (give suspicious glances, draw weapons and threaten them, don't simply leap out of invisibility to "win" a fight).
The Rules for PvP in Arabel does, in fact, distinctly point out invis ganks as one of "win" mentality problem. This Win Mentality is very much part of the problem Arabel faces. I don't know what sort of "out" the character received, or chance to escape, I presume one was given, because I trust my fellow players and DMs to at least see that that occurs.
-
There was an IC and OOC reason why to keep her in jail for so long. Mostly due to DM schedules and the nature of the event and how her rescue was to take place.
An event that our local Dms worked hard on.
-
And the invis Gank? Care to explain that, please?
-
Afaik, they gave their allies plenty of opportunity to free them. Not only through negotiation, but through the event that subsequently happened. They tried, they failed, people ended up dead for it. Welcome to Game of Thrones! Shit! I mean City of Arabel!
I don't know -all- the details. I do know that this is the first big win for Team Evil in a while and it kinda seems like bad form that it's thus being overshadowed by this typical case of Rage Quitting. The only difference is she pointed a lot of fingers on her exit post instead of just the Typical "I just need to take time away. May be back, may not." That everyone else does.
-
this is true I was involved in trying to negotiate their freedom.
-
this is mostly for server transparency. I'm not really offended but just trying to stop some rumors.
-
If anything of this was not legit, the DM team would have retconned it.
Like Spiffy said, we originally planned to hold the event sooner but we had to reschedule to make sure all people can attend(Including the player that was imprisoned, because she couldnt do it over the weekend). No levels were lost by anyone in that invis gank and all that happened was party A moving the assaulted party to a secure location.The plot evolved based on the players' decisions and actions. Players were offered ways out on every turn when it was logical. We can force players to take those outs.
The rest I recommend handling and learning In Game. Not all is spoiled for a reason and I can assure you that what you read on the forums is half the story.Also please refrain from snarky comments. This is a potential toxic topic as it is and if I see more snarky comments I will just lock this thread.
-
~~I did lose a level, actually. That's only part of why I was annoyed, but the rest isn't especially relevant. Don't want to air it here.
(Pretty sure Thirianna also lost a level, as we'd leveled at about the same point. Don't hold me to that, though.)~~
Actually, thinking about it, I don't want to commit to that, as a lot happened in a short period of time (and the DMs presumably have logs, whereas I just have the persistence of memory.) I will however clarify that my own leaving doesn't really have anything to do with losing or winning, but the attitudes behind it, which don't seem liable to change given I seem to be in the minority here. Thune said it; The "Win" mentality, whether playing good or evil, sucks the fun out for me. So does feeling that I'm going to regret being courteous, regret compromising. I don't like that feeling, and I'm not going to put myself in a position where it's going to keep happening. Hopefully that all makes sense.
-
I think I've heard sufficient to make a sound conclusion out of this. I hereby make the suggestion to lock this topic in the spirit of no derailment or snarky comments.
-
So, I was the DM that oversaw the first event. I was cranky, just finished a 4 hour event, and really wanted nothing to do with it. What happened after was a total surprise, however, because I thought the way the brigade players handed it was A+ all around. Here's some facts based around it;
The event took place in north arabel, and the attackers followed the rules and dragged me kicking and screaming back in game.
The attack was awfully close to the militia barracks, so I beefed up a penal legionare and fought with the people that were attacked to represent that.
The brigade demanded a ransom once the players were captives, and everyone seemed happy including the captives themselves so far. Cool. The ransom was high, and I wish the players in the brigade were a bit more flexible in the negotiations, but the reality is that the main captive (sophie) was aligned with a player that gets that much gold just for logging in once a day for 8 days straight. That player just didn't want to be involved, leaving sophie's other rich friend trying to negotiate with everything he had. Honestly, I think this was the biggest tragedy of the whole event. It was certainly the most disappointing to me.
Ok, so people gotta go, no arrangement has been met, and now we have this carrying over longer then it should have. But hey, we got some lemons, lets make some lemonade. I know that there were complaints about the dispel braziers, but the event that revolved around the attempt at rescuing sophie was made with a lot of love by thomas and strife, and actually is a sign of great things to come in the future if you look at it objectively instead of through the lens of what didn't work as it was supposed to.
At the end of the day, the "good guys" lost, and a character ended up dead. I try to be more empathetic towards people who get overly bummed out by this, even if its not my natural state, because I realize taht people invest a lot in coa. But, really, at the end of the day some times a story is just over.
As far as people quitting over this, well, I have my standard line that many of you have heard at one time or another over the past year. "sorry to see you go, the server will still be here if and when you are ready to return." Its really that simple.
There are things that I don't like about CoA, but the server would just be me logging in to play my own events if that wasn't true. We are a collaborative effort here, which means lots of play styles and ideas. Its impossible to make it perfect for everyone. That's what makes it so frustrating at times, but its also what makes it beautiful when things are going well.
If that works for you, great, lets get in game and have fun. If not, then I wish you all the best on whatever path life takes you. Just do yourself a favor, and leave with some semblance of class and self respect, this way if and when you do decide to come back the server really is still here waiting for your return with open arms.