Intrigue and Adventure VS CoA Sims
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I definately see your point. What I'm saying is many a ranger has roamed the land and found nothing but a few spawns- However, if you hold something big which is impossible to be missed by DMs, youll have a great chance to be helped out. That's what I'm trying to prove.
If I held a huge cookout, the next time I was wandering around, a DM would recognize me and maybe spawn an uber White Stag lord. If all I did was just walk around all day, I'm pretty sure nothing would come up.
Case in point, I remember when I hunted with Victor the butcher. He had all of his posters worked out, I'm sure everyone knew what he was all about..and one day a DM spawned a massive wolf for us to hunt down. Would it be the same if Vic's player wasn't running the whole SimCoA aspect? Really, who wants to eat the finest meat in town when in the end all that's written on it is "Cooked Food".
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To be fair, Vic the Butcher is an awesome character. I don't think anyone can dispute that. Original characters with a personality and something that sets them apart from other generic adventurers is always refreshing to see.
That's not what is being debated here. It's the way that those kind of events are approached that probably isn't the one that yields the best results. I will repeat here for those that might not have read my DM Insider from a few weeks past.
Best way to garner a DM's attention:
A PM to a DM, who will consequently post it on the forums for all other DMs to see.
A small tell in the dm channel like: /dm [Hey there, I'm going -there- doing -this-]
An email to the DM team explaining your plans.
I hope I used a big enough font this time. Of course, from then on, the actual events needs to be -fun- for the DMs too if you want a DM to participate. But as it was said, you don't necessarily -NEED- a DM to make things interesting.
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I definately see your point. What I'm saying is many a ranger has roamed the land and found nothing but a few spawns- However, if you hold something big which is impossible to be missed by DMs, youll have a great chance to be helped out. That's what I'm trying to prove.
If I held a huge cookout, the next time I was wandering around, a DM would recognize me and maybe spawn an uber White Stag lord. If all I did was just walk around all day, I'm pretty sure nothing would come up.
No. The DM would go. "Wow, why does this guy think I want to DM a cook-out?"
Hence, the entire purpose of this thread to explain to people why a DM would care and how to get them to care and why we often don't seem to care about some things like clothing drives, fashion shows, and kitten declawing.
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@Love:
I thought CoA was a "political" server. Faction vs faction, PC's vs PC's. I'm surprised when Moloch says that it doesn't take much effort for a DM to set up an "adventure" for the players. I always thought you didn't have the time for that, or that you had to think of 5 small, smart events/plots of your own before you were "rewarded" with an "adventure". I've been focusing on PC vs PC when I've been setting my goals, trying to figure out the easiest and quickest way to start some conflict between two groups of people.
What I'm saying is this.
Suppose your Helmite has spent weeks or even months going on quests looking for the Lost Sword of Helmy McHelmite. He regularly takes other players on adventures to seek it out, organizes trips to the Underdark/Stormhorns/Vast Swamp looking for it (even though you know ooc that its not actually out there when you leave but you're roleplaying the search and quest for it).
It is really EASY for you to send a DM Tell saying "Heading into the Vast Swamp looking for the Sword of Helmy McHelmite which is a relic my PC is searching for that probably doesn't exist."
Now a DM seeing that and looking for something to do will go, GREAT! Then I'll spawn monsters, maybe spawn adventure and action for you, and maybe if I see you doing this long enough and I'm having lots of fun with your character-I'll spawn the Sword of Helmy McHelmite.
No application necessary. You were just doing awesome things getting people out to adventure and entertain them and me and so you gain my attention and a cool reward.
Now its feasible, you'll never find the Sword of Helmy McHelmite–but odds are you'll at the least get some attention. You may even earn the enmity of Mystran McMystie who wants the Sword of Helmy McHelmite to stay lost who will work against you as a player character to foil your searches and challenge you to duels and seek to undermine your followers.
Heh, this is good to know, as a player who enjoys doing this, that this is cool with the DM's, i expected it would be.
I will make sure to do some more of it again sometime soon :mrgreen:
Cya
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Obviously an exaggeration, but even if I dumped a whole lot of really well thought storyline into it…Would you consider throwing something this big for the sole purpose of me and 8 others getting awsome loot and awsome xp?
8? Try 1. Depends what your login is.
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Longish post, sorry..
If I held a huge cookout, the next time I was wandering around, a DM would recognize me and maybe spawn an uber White Stag lord. If all I did was just walk around all day, I'm pretty sure nothing would come up.
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No. The DM would go. "Wow, why does this guy think I want to DM a cook-out?"Here I think is the disconnect between many players and DMs. I think if both sides adjusted their attitude a /little/, there could be some great results. There isn't so much difference between the 'players' and the 'DMs', we're all here to have a good time, and we need the synergy for it to be really great.
I totally understand where a lot of players come from when they don't want to send out an extremely direct message basically asking for a straightforward 'quest' where you defeat X amount of monsters and get rewarded with l00t; because a) in many cultures asking for something directly is a great way NOT to get what you want, b) it is not interesting at all for two people to roll a handful of dice, tally up the numbers (in a slightly convoluted way), and then point out a winner. A 'quest' should (IMHO) be about lateral thinking, solving 'puzzles' (including but not limited to combat!), surprising each other, and role-playing a story.
However, I doubt the DMs expect you to basically write a module and hand it to them to adjudicate IG. That's their job. But it's your job to come up with a reason to undertake the quest. So people will have to step over their compunctions and be at least a little more clear about what they plan. I suppose you would publicly still go about it the same way, but also drop two or three lines to a DM giving them some background and ideas that you think would be fun for them to use to mess with what's going on.Also, I suppose many players don't believe that things should be straightforward. "Let's go kill some blue dragon-babies" for them is not a no-brainer, their chars would have moral issues with it and consider the long term effects it might have. (You get into the whole "do two wrongs make a right?"/"ends,means"-thing here. For many (older?) players the answer is NO, although the traditional D&D attitude, the whole way NWN works and (from what I've seen over the last month or so) most of the CoA-DMs view seems to be YES, it /is/ still good to kill evil people even if you wouldn't be able to prove they did anything wrong.)
From a DM's perspective it must be hard too; it's impossible to read people's minds, and when someone is walking around somewhere or posts about a 'sims'-like event, you can't know if people would be annoyed or elated (or any other of things) when you 'interfere' with their thing to spice it up a little and make it more like you would have liked to see it.
However, if there's anyone that would not be elated to have a DM 'meddle' in their thing, I would be extremely surprised. Even if it ends up not being what they'd planned IC, OOC they would (or at least should) be really happy they matter. So, if something 'simish' is happening, and there is no background/ideas note posted, would it really hurt to send the 'organiser' a small one/two line PM to prod them to make an application? This might/should be all that is needed to make someone realise that a) DMs do care about them, b) it's not bad form to ask. c) now would be a good time.
And if someone comes up with a 'lame' idea, perhaps it could be used creatively anyway, "Be careful what you wish for, you might get it". Players expect the DMs do this kind of thing, it's what would happen in a PnP game.
P.
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You clearly missed the entire point. Please try reading the original post again. See if you can't get the part where I said that "holding a cook-out" is not really a good way to make a name for yourself. Yet, where I did say, taking people out to hunt some rare fantastic beast to cook (even if you don't expect to find it) is a good way to make a name for yourself.
I actually very slightly dissagree here.
Doint 'sims' events occasionally is, sometimes, a very good idea. So long as you do it not for reasons of getting DMs involved and more to get to know other characters.
This, IMO, is just as good a reason to do any ceremony or such. Also, if you're board, it can be just as much fun to set up an event wherein you can just get ot know some other characters, make alliances, and so forth.
Granted this works badly for long term plots, but for short term 'getting to know people' events, it's not such a bad thing.
Also sometimes people want to do these things not because they want DM attention or Uber Loot, but because it's just What their Character Would Do.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that we want a server full of this and nothing but, however the odd event like this does no harm and help builds player interaction.
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I get your point YM2A. It is entirely unrelated to the point I am making.
My premise is, if you want to do this stuff, that's entirely alright. Have a cook-out all you want, arrange your character's third wedding in a month, the DMs want you to have fun, make bricks and sweep back alleys to remove the trash or hold clothing drives for the slums (people have done all these things).
However, if you're doing this stuff thinking it gets a DM's attention, is something that will earn you DM-perks, or that a DM even typically pays attention–I wanted to correct that notion and help people realize what does get those things. I know people have been frustrated in the past when this stuff got no heed from the DMs--and I figure it will help to know why.
Plus, I know for some it is a disconnect that making bricks and stacking them up to build a temple doesn't actually work in CoA--but going out to slay the Great Terrible Beast of the Land will get a temple built. It isn't exactly logical, but it is how adventure games should work.
I also tried to explain how to actually get a DM's attention focused even on things that we typically outright ignore simply because it isn't what we're looking to spend our time focused upon.
Of course, I think I've made that abundantly clear, so why people are continuing to raise unrelated issues on this particular topic is actually confusing me. Worse still, you are just muddying the issue which I want to keep clear.
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I think part of the reason players don't try to engage in adventure and intrigue outside the norm is because of the OOC reasons. Every player "knows" OOC that the sword of Helmy isn't located anywhere in the module so they never try to go "look" for it IC. It would be a waste of time for everyone involved, right?
But, now that the secret is out of the bag, I hope more players try to involve others (and conversely, other players try to involve -themselves-) so that a bored DM can get some love!
Don't look at what a DM can do for -you- (not always), but also look at what you can do for the DM! The DM wants to have fun too and by going off somewhere off the beaten path, the DM can play along too.
Now. I'm off to call a quest to go dragon hunting. I expect a DM to be there! :lol:
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My premise is, if you want to do this stuff (snip) sweep back alleys to remove the trash or hold clothing drives for the slums (people have done all these things).
However, if you're doing this stuff thinking it gets a DM's attention, is something that will earn you DM-perks, or that a DM even typically pays attention–I wanted to correct that notion and help people realize what does get those things. I know people have been frustrated in the past when this stuff got no heed from the DMs--and I figure it will help to know why.
I can understand this point, but there is one drawback. Take the slums and the Ilmatari for example. There are many times when either a npc or a pc will admonish either my character or other Ilmatari characters for 'not doing anything to help the people'. We have often tried to do things to 'help the people', like gather food, clothes, etc, to show these pc's and npc's that we actually do give a crap and do take steps to make things better. Even if it has no great effect, an attempt is still being made.
Now if a dm doesnt want to take any notice or acknowledge these things, that's fine. But it isnt really fair then for npc groups and pc groups to go around saying that the Ilmatari didnt do anything or dont care for the people. Frankly I find it disheartening sometimes to be told so many times that we 'dont do anything' or we 'dont care' when the exact opposite is true.
I think in this case the 'simming' of a food or clothing drive, should be at least acknowledged by the dm's as some sort of proactive behaviour. We are at least trying.
If the response is along the lines of "there is no intrigue or adventure in a food drive", then honestly I dont know what else to do. I believe that is what my character would do.
Any tips on how we can show that we care without doing such mundane things as raising food and clothes, and have intrigue and adventure, while at the same tame being essentially non violent….would be appreciated.
Cheers.
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I think what Moloch is trying to says is that if you want to make the people think that you are doing something for them you:
1. Create intrigue and adventure. Go looking for artifacts (Cornucopia), explore dungeons, search for a rare fruit tree that will produce a lot of fruit or something.
2. After a while, if you are successful and if you get DM attention, you may be rewarded with something and the people will be happy.
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Am I allowed to "lol"?
The DMs want adventure and intrigue, but also a genuine fear of death and it's harshness, and then wonder why people don't drag their characters they probably adore into the waiting maws of crippling, maiming, and death?
Edit: Snarkiness aside, I may as well explain more.
Im not really guilty of the CoA sims thing, to be honest. The game engine doesnt really support it well, and it's boring. I like to adventure!
The problem is that generally speaking, adventuring below level 4 in NWN is just garbage and sucks. Even Bioware realized this, making sure that you were able to blast through the first 3 levels fairly quickly through a tutorial, and have a bit more of an open tool box.
I spent like, 95% of my time on CoA so far in the "garbage range". Once I got out of it, I'd try and organize players to do something not often done, scripted quest wise, but usually there was no interest. I'd try and go and adventure solo, and that would quickly be followed by a spiral down into the garbage range again.
If what I've been doing wrong is not hassling the DMs IG/through application enough, then Ill be glad to try that now in the future, and just make sure to limit my time IG accordingly.
Also, the rewards for running "adventure" while DMs aren't present just aren't there. Simply too much risk, with little to no reward. 90% of the playerbase isnt into this, it seems, and its sad.
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Am I allowed to "lol"?
The DMs want adventure and intrigue, but also a genuine fear of death and it's harshness, and then wonder why people don't drag their characters they probably adore into the waiting maws of crippling, maiming, and death?
Why do you want to play a game where you can't loose?
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@Moloch:
My premise is, if you want to do this stuff (snip) sweep back alleys to remove the trash or hold clothing drives for the slums (people have done all these things).
However, if you're doing this stuff thinking it gets a DM's attention, is something that will earn you DM-perks, or that a DM even typically pays attention–I wanted to correct that notion and help people realize what does get those things. I know people have been frustrated in the past when this stuff got no heed from the DMs--and I figure it will help to know why.
Moloch spells out his point the best here I think. If you enjoy doing more Sims like behavior (and I for one think there's definitely a time and place for them) then that's great and you should enjoy it with as many PCs as you can. The DMs won't likely help you or run events around them, because for the most part they're likely not that much fun for them to DM for. Besides, if you enjoy it for the experience itself, then whether or not a DM is helping you out is irrelevent. No where is he saying that a player should be discouraged from doing something more "Sims" like.
Anyway, I think Moloch's main point here was to help players figure out more creative ways to turn what is typically a "Sims"-like event into something the DMs may be more willing to support. He's offered a lot of good tips and examples of how to do so.
My premise is, if you want to do this stuff (snip) sweep back alleys to remove the trash or hold clothing drives for the slums (people have done all these things).
However, if you're doing this stuff thinking it gets a DM's attention, is something that will earn you DM-perks, or that a DM even typically pays attention–I wanted to correct that notion and help people realize what does get those things. I know people have been frustrated in the past when this stuff got no heed from the DMs--and I figure it will help to know why.
This can go both ways, and here is where I think DMs and Players need to meet in the middle. On one hand, the NPCs that the DMs use to tell a character they're not doing anything worthwhile may be the type that only cares about adventuring and more action-oriented type events. That's going to be up to the individual DM's discretion in judging what their particular NPC values. If that's the case, the player needs to just take it for it is, and realize that even in real life, not everyone's contributions are always recognized.
However, on the other side, I think DMs do need to stay conscious of a character's non-adventuring contributions and have the NPCs reacting accordingly. If a PC is helping the poor through food drives (but nothing really adventure oriented) then it wouldn't make much sense for the beggars in the slums to be telling those PCs that they're not doing anything worthwhile. Being conscious of this is how players will be able to more easily make the transition from a non-adventure event into a more adventure oriented one (Helping the poor to gain their support, then embarking on a few more adventurous events to eventually rile them up into a mob, for example).
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Am I allowed to "lol"?
The DMs want adventure and intrigue, but also a genuine fear of death and it's harshness, and then wonder why people don't drag their characters they probably adore into the waiting maws of crippling, maiming, and death?
When I was actively DMing, I found that players of characters who wanted adventure and intrigue, but also harbored a realistic perception of death tended to feel the most rewarded. I was a lot more interested in helping out these sorts of players because I knew that the game (to them) was about telling a story through their character. They found and figured out exciting things to do, but understood if their character died or was effected deeply by the event, it wasn't personal. And as a result, I had more fun because they wouldn't send me PMs after the event with page long rants and complaints.
There's no reward without risk, afterall.
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@Simultaneous:
Am I allowed to "lol"?
The DMs want adventure and intrigue, but also a genuine fear of death and it's harshness, and then wonder why people don't drag their characters they probably adore into the waiting maws of crippling, maiming, and death?
Why do you want to play a game where you can't loose?
I don't.
But I also don't want to play a game where when I "win" I get 250 XP. If I lose, I get to trashbin 3000 XP. Its this thing called Risk Vs Reward, and well, if there's no reward, there's no good reason to take risks.
I generally did anyway, but all it led to was a list of about 20 dead characters, not a single one that anyone would care about in 2-3 days afterwards.
It's one of the major "irksome" things about CoA personally, to me. It has all the restraints and penalties of PnP, where in a session you might have 4-5 "encounters" over a 3-4 hour period, but none of the benefit. IE: It still has the insane low XP scale that Bioware implemented because it is a video game. Of course, BW also completely softballed the death penalty, but IMO, CoA overcompensates for it.
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Why not create some adventure out of your events:
If you're going to have a clothing drive, poetry slam, masquerade ball, slow-pitch softball league, play, cocktail party, etc. let someone know who would oppose you in on some ways they could disrupt you. Maybe the play is really just a set-up to get someone out in the open and assassinate them, or the ball is setup to poison the guards so you can rob Sanders, and the play you're putting on is a thinly veiled criticism of the witch-hunters and you invite them to come and see if you get burned at the stake in act 2, the clothing drive could be robbed by..er a pants bandit?.
I really thought the whole meat buyer and bbq was a setup to get the druids riled up and make the woods unsafe for city-folk but I haven't seen much conflict over it.
I usually attend most non-combat events out of the ooc courtesy that I know a player has spent a lot of time setting something up and I'd hate for no one to show up. On the other hand about 10 minutes in, I usually sit there wishing that ninjas would come crashing through the windows for some reason.
It is unfortunate in an RPG when a gathering goes splendidly and everyone has a good time and gets along and makes it home safely with no regrets. That doesn't even happen at my RL parties.
I guess you can do whatever you like, but I think if other people are really going to enjoy something if you're spending a lot of time with it. I personally love wandering in the woods getting to know a group where you may be slaughtered by a dire bear from a random spawn rather than safely sit around and get to know characters around a bar table. I'm more of a hack and slash guy though and really don't have much fun unless my heart is my throat and I feel a little sick due to the stress and excitement of being hunted down by another player or DM enhanced spawn.
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@Simultaneous:
Am I allowed to "lol"?
The DMs want adventure and intrigue, but also a genuine fear of death and it's harshness, and then wonder why people don't drag their characters they probably adore into the waiting maws of crippling, maiming, and death?
Why do you want to play a game where you can't loose?
I don't.
But I also don't want to play a game where when I "win" I get 250 XP. If I lose, I get to trashbin 3000 XP. Its this thing called Risk Vs Reward, and well, if there's no reward, there's no good reason to take risks.
I generally did anyway, but all it led to was a list of about 20 dead characters, not a single one that anyone would care about in 2-3 days afterwards.
That's your problem. It's not that the rewards aren't out there, you just don't want to take the risks because you keep loosing. Learn from your mistakes instead of complaining about the penalties !
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But I also don't want to play a game where when I "win" I get 250 XP. If I lose, I get to trashbin 3000 XP. Its this thing called Risk Vs Reward, and well, if there's no reward, there's no good reason to take risks.
That's a bad way of looking at it. I would think that the experience and actually being part of a DM event is much more worth it, than the XP bonus or penalty you get. I mean we are all playing this game for the RP and entertainment right? Not just loot and levels right? Right…?