So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please)
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I've been playing Guild Wars 2. And I've got to say, the gameplay is amazing.
If you want to kill shit for XP to get to Lv80, you can. You'll get coins, gear, and crafting materials for killing monsters.
If you want to participate in events, alone or in a party, there are plenty of opportunities. These reward people heavily with an alternative form of currency, called karma.
If you want to just run around the map and get all the map stuff (portal waypoints, jumping puzzles), it gives plenty of XP too! It won't reward gold, but completing a map in its entirety does grant some itemized rewards (which I often sell since my class can't equip them).There's enough variety that it doesn't feel like a grind if you don't want to view it as a grind. I make it my job to go out and 100% each map I do - and I'll still need to go back after Lv80 to get all the maps I didn't do! It scales you down to the level of the content, so you still get reasonable XP.
What can we learn from this?
(1) We need a lot of explorable areas, and ways to get XP from them that scales according to level. Obviously, we can't do jumping puzzles, but there's no reason exploration shouldn't be rewarding beyond just killing monsters. We've tried this somewhat, with the XP markers, but often the XP isn't worth it at low levels compared to questing, while at high levels, it's worth FAR more than questing.
(2) A living environment. I doubt our server can support this, but if you have NPCs moving between locations at regular intervals, and you let players talk to them to join their escort, that might give people a chance to talk and walk while getting XP. An idea for this would be a caravan between Arabel and Tilverton - you can escort NPCs and, should you accept the script, ambushes will spawn as you go. You get XP depending on how many NPCs are alive (and there should be about 2 NPC guards that are harder to kill). You could also, say, escort fey from Arael to the Twisted Maze. Necro-friendly crews could escort NPC necros or vampires to/from Vorenthia's isle. -
How about areas that spawn random mobs and that gives xp/hour you stay on it? Exploiting the system, ex.: standing still there with a group, would be DM punishable.
It could be done in dungeon areas, like forests, stonelands, swamps, down ruins, etc. Deeper dungeon gets higher lvl spawns. -
I don't think you can get around the "grind". Its all a matter of perspective. If everything is made more accessible then the new system will in time be considered a "grind". Increasing levels and loot wont change this. If you start at 2 and can get level 11 or 12 thats a grind sure. But if you start at 6 and can get level 16 that will also be considered a grind eventually. People will also find out that the difference between a level 10 and a level 16 is far, far greater than the difference between a level 6 and a level 12.
So all in all I don't think you can remove "the grind" there will always be a new thing that is considered a grind.
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One issue is, you grind when you're bored and not roleplaying. I don't quest often when I'm really playing because I find repeating the same few quests people do over and over because they "pay the best" IS a damned grind! Its awful.
I prefer to quest by doing quests I've not done before, or often, and I like to roleplay on them and interact with players and I don't CARE if my buffs wear off; I'll enjoy the challenge.
If I log in and don't want to "grind" I decide its time to take a break and play a new game for a bit. I got caught in at trap like a hampster wheel.
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I'm weird, i like the mid-high level grind. I actually enjoy it. It's just the start where things are mind numbingly boring for me, it's like doing the opening dungeon from Baldur's gate every time again and again for 13 years, even if i enjoy everything that comes after.
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I have always found the only "Grind" for me in CoA to be the few early level quests to catch up to every one else so you can join in with others.
Otherwise the game is really what you make it and the best way to affect positive change is to lead by example.
All of this has me disappointed.
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I'm going to throw this out here-- it may be more of a keeping up with the Jones' issue:
We get on here/discord and hear about everyone sitting on piles of gold or awesome loot or who can level to 10 in a week easy. Worst case scenario- do badly in PvP against someone who unloads an expesive bag of consumable death on you. I'm sure there is a lot of frustration at not having things that others have and who seems to get it easily.I seriously have not met a bad player who wasn't put a ton of work building an playing an interesting character since I've been back. You have some top notch players from all playstyles here- best ever on this server. Hands down. No one has refused to RP with me, cliqued out or excluded me-- no matter the level or play-style.
We all need to try and help out each other's plots, give some respect to hard earned IG positions & titles rather than mechanical superiority. In a way the more tightly regulated days of the server gave these players a NPC safety net of guards and gold that we don't seem to have now.
In the very least we should not trample people working on things, I'm not sure how to level the playing field beyond that.
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Speaking without any real knowledge on the matter so don't take my words for a fact.
But I'm willing to bet most of the people cheating were probably doing more than fine to begin with. -
@mr-moloch you make a good point. As odd as it sounds though, grinding doesn’t feel like grinding when you’re doing it for a reason.
I think the orc quests, and quests where you’re actively pursuing an overarching objective don’t necessarily feel like a grind because they fit into the story pretty well.
Going to kill Cobble Demons every reset with your team trying to end the bloodstone trade just makes sense. It’s in character and adds to the story. Collecting scars and making new friends along the way.
However.. It does become boring and grind like when the quests hold no meaning to the story. Sounds like we just need more quests our characters can relate to.
Which is easier said than done....
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@chinatown said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):
Speaking without any real knowledge on the matter so don't take my words for a fact.
But I'm willing to bet most of the people cheating were probably doing more than fine to begin with.Won't lie, its a whose who list of the very characters who we've been looking at for months going "how do they have soooo much gold and so many potions? What's going on with the gold and potion bloat, why are quests so easy". I'm still going through all the logs, its making me more and more depressed to see it. Up shot, quests are more balanced than I thought, some people have just been really screwing over the rest of you for advantages. What hurts more, is some of these folks were given some pretty cool ingame rewards and won some major PvP events--and turns out they were cheating for advantages over the rest of us. :(
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We are all human. This is a game. I have faith ((against my better judgement)) that these players will come clean and we will press on.
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@people said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):
We are all human. This is a game. I have faith ((against my better judgement)) that these players will come clean and we will press on.
I can't stress this enough. I have faith too. We need to have this resolved so everyone can get back to enjoying a game and the community.
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I don't envy the DM team right now. A bunch of players decided they wanted to play a different game from the rest of us, and that's always rough. The shame of it is, they were still logged onto CoA while they were doing it.
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@mr-moloch said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):
@chinatown said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):
Speaking without any real knowledge on the matter so don't take my words for a fact.
But I'm willing to bet most of the people cheating were probably doing more than fine to begin with.Won't lie, its a whose who list of the very characters who we've been looking at for months going "how do they have soooo much gold and so many potions? What's going on with the gold and potion bloat, why are quests so easy". I'm still going through all the logs, its making me more and more depressed to see it. Up shot, quests are more balanced than I thought, some people have just been really screwing over the rest of you for advantages. What hurts more, is some of these folks were given some pretty cool ingame rewards and won some major PvP events--and turns out they were cheating for advantages over the rest of us. :(
If I managed to get 300K gold legally with quests and various sales, I can't imagine where those who cheated got up to. I mean, earning gold and consumables on CoA is already pretty easy, there's no need to cheat to start with. DMs usually refill players on most DM events with loot and what not, too, so 'grinding back up' your consumables don't take much time between events.
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I have to agree with Moloch that it is deeply upsetting to see what is going on, but an apology and admitting wrong doing goes a long way to mend broken trust.
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@mr-moloch said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):
One issue is, you grind when you're bored and not roleplaying. I don't quest often when I'm really playing because I find repeating the same few quests people do over and over because they "pay the best" IS a damned grind! Its awful.
I prefer to quest by doing quests I've not done before, or often, and I like to roleplay on them and interact with players and I don't CARE if my buffs wear off; I'll enjoy the challenge.
If I log in and don't want to "grind" I decide its time to take a break and play a new game for a bit. I got caught in at trap like a hampster wheel.
I love the "doing different quests" thing, you can really RP your interaction with the environment, can lead to something fun and more unpredictable.
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// If bad English can be found, feel free to correct me, I still learn the language.
This is maybe a time to express my thoughts about this because I am certainly one of the people "brand new to NWN" as @TheTwistingWind said at the start of this topic.
Alright, I am a noob to all games that require quick handling of mouse and such. I'm the worst FPS player you might have ever seen. (I know this isn't one, but sometimes needs the same skills.) I'm a programmer and I got used to typing like a programmer and just suck with accessing quickslots and learning another way of interacting with my notebook. (I almost never use a mouse and/or a touchpad because I simply don't need but in games)
So, I made many mistakes, cast wrong spells, used wrong wands, etc. and I just died again and again. I still continuously do that, mostly because I am a wizard, and it sucks if it comes to HP and AC.
I got back to level 1 from almost 9 (50 XP or so?) in a week. That was ridiculous, but alright, I managed. I got better, I haven't died at Nada, and in Gilmore's, and wow, right, I could manage that! (I'm somehow back to 7) But if I died again and needed to do this stuff again, I'd just give up and sit and talk and wait for a looooong time before I go back to do quests.I was told that this thing sucks and I should get used to it. If it didn't mean I lose 40% of my 25-30000ish XP I would be good with it, but... Alright, should I have got a resurrection or raise dead? I had one, and shortly after that, I died again...
Shouldn't wizards go fishing or collecting (basic) ingredients for alchemy stuff alone? I cannot ask somebody all the time I need to get some fishes... It was soo funny when I got raised, and later I went to the swamps for some ingredients, rolled 1 for endurance as always :D, and a displacer appeared in front of me and critted. In 3 seconds I was in the fugue. :DSo the thing I miss that talking in the spire for hours also worth the same XP as doing a quest (or quests). (Right, that depends on what you're talking about, maybe, but...). I understand that this is something that can't be monitored by scripts (can be, but it's kind of hard to write) but still certainly could help me enjoy the game more.
Since I'm a wizard and I suck with the mouse, I mostly cannot use spells other than "buffing". It is starting to be incredibly boring and annoying when the conversation is the same all the time: "Prepare some bulls cats and protection from evil and elements for me please". And I do, and I have that amount of slots I have no place remaining for other spells. But when I'm buffing, I (most of the time) can do it with the right target. But If I wanted to cast a fireball (and I certainly would enjoy that), I'm doomed, because I have no time for it, because I'm slow and whatever, and that spell got useless, and I got sort of useless with it.However, despite of all these, I would never cheat. Maybe I would think about it but I'd step away from the game instead I think.
By the way, I like this server and community, and many people are helpful and they have my thanks.
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@wulfric said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):
Since I'm a wizard and I suck with the mouse, I mostly cannot use spells other than "buffing". It is starting to be incredibly boring and annoying when the conversation is the same all the time: "Prepare some bulls cats and protection from evil and elements for me please".
A bit off topic, but buff-magery sucks! Have you tried using summons? Some of them are really powerful and you can still feel like a badass and just let them auto-attack things around you.
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@wabbitseason Yes, you are right... Really a bit off. But I won't delete now what I've written down. Sorry
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That's alright, I meant it's my transgression for going off-topic, your post was fine!