On Magic and Mysteriousness
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I normally don't like to post threads like this. I find threads which presume to help others "improve their roleplay" or learn how to do X "correctly" to be endlessly conceited, but this one particular issue is one on which I will stoop so low, just because the issue has been the proverbial thorn in my side for years. Magic is supposed to be mysterious. A mysterious, hard to understand force which men of great intelligence spend their entire lives studying and yet still fail to fully understand. Mages are strange, subtle workers of the will who only rarely amass great magical power through careful study.
In D&D, the spells available are broken down into simply titled spells, but I have always considered this to be merely a contrivance to allow players to wield what is supposed to be a mysterious force in a game which is based upon rules. Why is it that every rundown schmuck in a 2 goldpiece tunic knows not only the "names" of spells, but also about things that are even more obvious OOC abstractions, such as spell level?
Which is cooler:
A: Using force of will and magic to tear a hole in the veil which separates the planes, pulling a creature forth, and binding it to your will.
B: Summon Monster I
One is a lame game term. The other is a neat description which gets the point across while at the same time making magic seem like… well... magic. I have played a number of wizards, priests, and all manner of spellcasting classes here, on other servers, and in PnP, and I can probably count the number of times that my characters mentioned a spell by it's "name" on one hand.
Honestly, I think that, particularly if you are a mage, making magic seem as much of a mysterious force as possible should be near the top of your list of priorities. I actually heard the term "summoning theme" used a few times in game to describe the different creatures that can be summoned, and it made my head hurt.
Admittedly, sometimes people need particular spells either in potions, or cast upon them as they adventure, but I think it is far less of an immersion breaking experience for such things to be hammered down OOC through tells, rather than having your 10 Int barbarian ask for a potions of 'blur'. 'bull's strength', 'shield, etc, etc.
There is no reason to not simply have him simply ask for a potion that could protect him in battle, and then politely send a tell to the mage going "I would like blur potions". The alternative is for him to just start rattling off spells one after the other, using cute little names that just suck the mystery right out of magic faster than my brother telling me that Kevin Spacey was Keyser Söze sucked the mystery out of the Usual Suspects.
One is a harmless, hidden use of OOC to help preserve the illusion, and the other is IC use of what I consider to be OOC gamer terms which helps disrupt the illusion. I would much rather have people clarifying purchases or requests for buffs ooc than have the illusion of magic disrupted every five seconds.
Maybe I'm off base, and maybe it's an unrealistic expectation for me to hope that people might try and avoid game terms as much as possible. But I am almost certain that the flavor of magic and mages would be 100% more interesting if they were to at least attempt it, and maybe then magic would seem more like magic and less like grocery shopping.
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I like your train of thought here. I tend to get a kick out of wizards that play the mysterious mistic a lot more than the professor that explains everything he's doing. I would think there would be a certain amount of trade secrets and competativeness between mages in this setting. I remember years ago playing a gnome wizard that became incredibly pissed off when someone asked him to make them a spell scroll of some spell he knew and trade it for mere gold! He was stingy with his knowlege and that seemed proper to me at the time.
I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to play their character, but I do see where you are coming from.
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There is no reason to not simply have him simply ask for a potion that could protect him in battle, and then politely send a tell to the mage going "I would like blur potions". The alternative is for him to just start rattling off spells one after the other, using cute little names that just suck the mystery right out of magic faster than my brother telling me that Kevin Spacey was Keyser Söze sucked the mystery out of the Usual Suspects.
I think you make a valid point and your alternative is great, but they sell potions of Blur, Bull's Strength, Clarity, etc in shops.
It's not unfeasible that the 10 int barbarian has bought loads of them from shops, so knows the names of the potions he likes.
So, yea, what can ya do?
[off topic] Loved that movie! [/off topic]
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Potions have labels.
The stuff about spells is cool, my character has learned, in character, from mages, what they call certain spells, but even so, I barely use the names. It's really unlikely that everyone would do this, or even shares you view on it, just play spell-casters like that, and maybe some people will enjoy it, maybe some people might decide to do something similar, but don't expect a forum post to change anything. Hey form a group of mages that rigidly protect the true names of spells, through force and other means if you really want it to happen.
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Alas, going by the WYSIWYG rule, even an 8 intelligence barbarian will realise eventually that there exists magic for blowing up your enemies, for making your skin hard as rock or whatever else, and may even overhear names for these magics - though some of them are really given simple names as is (eg. magic weapon).
I am far more a fan of having magic be a bit more mysterious, but at the end of the day the game has in it (at least for NWN) some very well defined spells and abilities. It's not like reading a fantastical novel where the author can make magic take whatever form or whatever effects they wish, thereby keeping the reader guessing and keeping that mysterious element to what can be done with magic. That system has its own failings where it can just become silly, even frustrating watching an author take a perfectly good setting and spoil it by introducing something altogether far more potent than what you expect right out of the blue.
I think ultimately, it would be very cool for wizards to pull the "mysterious" card once in a while, chanting some disturbing words as they summon a creature or babbling curses as they paralyze someone, but the setting is not all that unfamiliar to magic; it's not secret societies and controlled-knowledge and commoners with pitchforks - it's common from a priest's prayers to seeing wizards walking around with strange familiars and fine robes.
That said, i'm sure it can be done. Look at priests currently - even though I try to ensure with mine that I don't do anything without first mentioning Talos, carving his symbol on the wall or demanding someone else do such, I still got chided for not demanding a prayer for a cure minor wounds spell! Though I don't really think there's as much of a case for wizards to HAVE to be more formal in some way about their spellcasting.
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I think this is valid, and actually especially relevant to sorcerers. In my case, Ariadne doesn't cast the same "spells" as a wizard would. The magic she wields is nothing as formal as what would be learned by studying tomes and by rote as a wizard would do. She doesn't even have names for a lot of the spells she casts. The effects might be similiar as a spell taught to a wizard, but they are more like extensions of herself and the power that she possesses than anything else - more instinctive than taught - and giving something that comes so naturally a name would just seem unnecessary. Given sufficient time and space, I'll emote the differences in her style, but often in the heat of battle such opportunities are lost.
For example, she was asked if she could cast mage armor once. She thought about it a bit and answered something like this:
"No, no I can't. I don't know spells like that. Mage armor is something wizards learn. I mean, I can do something along those lines, calling forth a mist which can act as armor, but it's not quite the same."
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My entire point here was that the names of the spells themselves are OOC constructs. The names of the spells are in the Player's Handbook so that you, the player, have something to call them. Some are reasonably descriptive enough that their use in character doesn't make me groan aloud (e.g. Fireball, invisibility.) But for the vast, vast majority of spells their names are overly simplistic, and just plain uninteresting. Magic, rather than being a mysterious and esoteric force is turned into a grocery list. It's like in Star Wars Episode One where they took The Force and shat on it. Instead of being a transcendental force which runs through all living things and sustains the fabric of the universe, as it had been in previous films, it was, all of a sudden, Midichlorians.
It takes what is otherwise a really neat idea and makes it really, really boring. As does taking magic, the weave, and all that, and reducing it to a bunch of tritely named spells on a list which everyone has memorized.
Our creativity need not be limited by the confines of the engine except where in game representation becomes impossible. The Players Handbook even specifies that individual mages should feel free to call their spells anything they damn well please, leave them unnamed, or anything else they want. Furthermore, people are free to roleplay their spells taking the form they wish. IE: One mage's magic missile could be a phantom bow firing arrows of pure energy, and another might be a trio of hellish skulls that track down and gnaw on whoever the mage directs the spell at.
Whenever my Jergalite paladin used to cast holy sword, which he did often, I would put a long emote which amounted to him writing a series of glowing runes down the blade of the sword with an ink quill (Jergal being a god of scribes and burial) and he never, ever referred to it as "holy sword". Instead, it was an offensive ward taught to Companions of the Pallid Mask by the church to be used against the unsanctioned undead. An ancient technique known to only a select few. And while other paladins could get similar effects by casting the same spell, as far as roleplay goes, it was not the same technique.
Way more interesting than just, "it's holy sword, can I buy a wand of that please?"
As far as I am concerned, there is nothing official saying that potions are all labeled; and they're certainly not all labeled with their Player's Handbook names. I would think it more likely that the name you see over the item in your inventory screen is an OOC representation of the fact that the effect of the potion has been made at least partially clear to your character upon buying it, and an OOC courtesy so that you might make smart decisions in combat.
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More mystery is nice and all but too far and well we get this
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html
Practicing my trolling skills sorry.
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Just to take the other side…
Magic has been around for thousands of years, studied, cataloged and discussed by academic wizards for eons. Spells as passed down from wizard to wizard by copying exactly the recipe, the dance steps and the shopping list for said spell into a book and practicing said ritual. They probably use the same names (depending on race and nation perhaps for variations), even common shorthand names like, "ghostly visage" and "fireball".
Melph invented the acid arrow, it's named after him and it looks the same no matter what wizard casts it. Bigby's hands are giant hands... not claws or anything else. Magic missiles are missiles of blue silvery light. The player's handbook may be one thing, but I think FR is specific on this.
Language is a thing. It makes it easy so we don't have to describe what a tree is to everyone. It become more specific over time and leads to generalizing very specific items... tree becomes oak tree becomes English oak tree become Quercus robur in Latin. Spells have names and affects. Everyone has the same pattern and calls it pretty much the same thing.
Wizards can research and create new spells or adaptations on spells, but it is a process- not some innate ability to make your own adjustments to spells on the fly. Wizards are by the book types; they're surgeons. You know the best way to do something that works 100% of the time and you go with it. If you're going to make changes you're going to read a lot and do controlled tests. Leave the red magic missiles and showy adaptations like that to the careless sorcerers.
I don't even think that magic would be all that shrouded in mystery in the Forgotten Realms. Not every commoner knows how it works, but the very rich may consider ordering up a "light cure" from the temple or having a mage come by to add "continual light" to some items so they don't have to have torches mess up the tapestries in the hall a normal occurrence.
On the battlefield, generals probably have a very good idea what to expect from their mages and opposing forces. The War Wizards of Cormyr and the Purple Dragons train together and have plans for how to fight together. They train and practice and have game plans for what buffs and offensive spells go well with what sorts of maneuvers. The general doesn't sit back and think, "the dumb fighters will charge in, and let's hope some of that mysterious witchcraft from the godlike mages saves us all somehow." They are a sophisticated group.
I'm not saying commoners should be asking for 3rd circle evocations or even PCs know every spell the first time they see it. A ball of fire flying in someone's direction is probably going to be called a "fireball" no matter what.
I have played in games where magic was uncommon, mysterious and dark. I just don't see it in the happy forgotten realms where every sword, mandolin and doorway is filled with bright and shiny magic.
When you open a magic shop, you need a catalog. Magic is a real thing, like a toaster or DVD player.
I wish magic was mysterious in FR, I just don't think it is.
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Devil's advocate time!
While I agree with yeahchris on a fundamental level, I feel that Nikko makes a valid point. Some spells have little to no variety to them (i.e., Fireball). However, I feel as though the APPLICATION of spells is something that could be heavily improved upon.
When I play a cleric or wizard, I try to make damn sure that I don't go buffing people like crazy without feeding in appropriate RP. I don't want to give massive advantages to my party/partner without valid reasons or proper elaboration. That way, when my level 6 fighter/barbarian friend in +1 fullplate, stoneskin, bull's strength, and endurance goes wtfpwning goblin chieftains, there's more background and intrigue to it than just a crazed PC on the xp train.
One of my favorite examples:
Bloodreaver: Do you accept the might of the Reaver, child of battles?
Garagosian Warrior: Aye!
Bloodreaver: So be it. [Bloodreaver grabs the Garagosian by the shoulders and squeezes, a misty red fog enshrouding his hands. The air around the two becomes humid and palpable with divine magic. As the Garagosian's muscles begin to bulge, the very stones beneath him begin to crackle and shoot up his skin, covering him in a hard shell of earth.]Now, you don't have to be quite as elaborate, but that's the idea I'm trying to convey. For wizards, I've also found that destructive magic can be deployed in various ways. I've seen some people who RP shooting magic missiles out of their hands as balls of energy, and I've seen some people RP actually creating a dagger of ice and quite literally just throwing the dagger instead of being click-happy on the quickslots.
While this does make for sick RP, there is one drawback I've always noticed: typing while casting. It is REALLY hard to RP shooting spells at something when it's right up on you and you only have 2hp left. With buffing sessions, this is much easier - usually you can get a string of two or three spells going, and that should give you some time to type out the RP. Hell, even if you're casting Barkskin and the only thing you can type is, "Vines shoot up from the ground and cover Player 2," that still works.
Noms for thoughts.
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When I play a Magician, I play a character that has been taught magic by another magician who has been taught by another in a university of magic. As Nikko says, these spells are written down precicely.
When I playe a sorcerer, I play someone who has invented their own magic, with mystery; someone who distains the Book Magic of the magician, who plays from the heart. Spells come from my sorcerer withough thought, but with passion. Without names, but with fire and power!
Good writeup, Nikko.
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I love Magic in all RPGs, but sincerly, yes, in D&D magic is kinda… simplified.... but well, it works fine.
I personally preffer the Mage series from White Wolf on this aspect.
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If you want to play in settings where magic's mysterious, Ars Magica is your friend. Not DnD. With exception of Midnight, I guess, and even then your DM'd have to simply limit everyone's access to the book, so they couldn't read the spell list.
