Fear of the new crafting system



  • I don't know about everyone else but i'm not looking forward to the new crafting system changes. I see COA as a fairly low magic server and by the sounds of it this new system will allow crafters to basically make massive combinations of magic weapons. Obviously I don't know about costs to make these items but i fear that some weapon combinations could easily be balanced to make some classes really powerful.

    The example given

    Just as a small spoiler, playing around with the system I made a Longsword that gave me +1 DEX, +3 Intimidation, +2 AB vs Elfs, cast Bless Once/Day, and -6 to Move Silently and Hide In Shadows

    Is this a particually good instance? I know you dont want to make spoilers etc, but for example if it was possible to make a weapon with +1 str and shield once/day with - anything to move silently/hide, this would be incredibly powerful for any fighter class. I just want to make sure that items made dont overpower armoured/rogue classes. The fact that clerics can cast blessings etc and wizards can cast enchantments and protection spells makes them vital in any team. The fact that players can get hold of items that cast spells just makes me fear an even greater increase in players of fighter/rogue or rogue/wizard power classing.

    I persoanlly like the fact that magic weapons are a rarity, +1 or the odd weapon that does elemental damage 1d4 is enough. I also fear that the element of random bonuses/penalties could render many items useless and unwanted and some items incredibly good and very valuble. If this is what the server is going for then its just going to be a little weird.

    I also know Dm's dont like the idea of crafters having to be high level to craft items, but this isnt so. If you put the work in and get around you can get items to craft good items at lower levels. I for instance have a character that is crafting masterwork platemail at lvl 4, i had to quest and put the work in the get the gold to make the items.

    I just hope this new change isnt going to damage what i've come so much to enjoy about this server.

    If anyone can put my fears to rest i'd be happy to hear anyones ideas 🙂



  • Our server's philosophy of a low-magic server won't change.

    We're just changing the -WAY- people will have to get their magical weapons, the power levels will stay pretty much the same, baring a few exceptions.



  • We basically just want more variation of magic, but the same level. We also don't want people to grind quests to get gold to craft, or to have to spend days putting little bits together in specific orders on benches somewhere in order to make a bow. The crafting system is confusing, time consuming, and not very rewarding.

    We'd rather have people focus on stories rather than on a boring crafting system! So, with this new system, it's just going to be a lot easier for people to get some custom loot for their characters, but you won't be able to have +2 weapons easily or anything still!



  • You say that the crafting system will allow anyone to customise weapons by making sure that any player can be rewarded for scripted tasks etc.

    The new system will instead reward you for going out to explore dangerous places and for going on scripted adventurers.

    The other concept was an issue with the previous crafting system

    The old system was too tied into levels. If you wanted to craft something great, you had to be a higher level.

    However, is it not correct that the rewards ("customisation of weapons") from these "dangerous places" and scripted quests will be most easily completed by higher level players and players that already have good gear. So I imagine that one of the only ways low level players will be able to complete these tasks will be to tag along with higher level players/ good geared players to manage to complete these tasks or get to these areas in order to get their gear boosted.

    The old crafting system was cumbersome with the carrying of lots of items. I never really minded going out and mining for materials, infact i found that very fun, working with a team to hunt and mine at the same time. (For example the goblin hunt in Anouroch - perhaps my fav quest, free roam of an area and free option to leave whenever you fancy and still be rewarded, lots of these places should be made in my opinion) The issue was multiple crafting attempts that was made painful by the slowing down of your character with a heavy unfinished set of armour.

    This new system i think will just perpetuate the riches of those with a trading monopoly (Those with storage space on the server) and reward higher level/geared players who can easily complete any of the tasks/scripted quests that need completing. These higher level/geared players therefore become even better geared thus increasing the player server goal towards getting higher levels to get enough gold to buy these great items.

    Views?



  • I'm curious as to whether the new system will still require the allocation of skill points to craft armor, craft trap and craft weapon.



  • Anyone asking questions remember that the have not finalised everything publically to the server so don't expect "spoilers" XD

    On the subject of crafting in general. I feel that the allocation of points into crafting and the allocation of feats for crafting is useful in that it acts as a balance, for example if you want to craft armour you have to sacrifice the skill points to be good in that skill.

    There has to be a balance in some form whether it be time, levels, skill choices or crafting. My personal preference is that the effort and time put into crafting was not at all an issue, it was the fact that it impeded your character from doing other things, like scripted quests. This would not be an issue if players had some form of storage (quite unreasonable suggestion due to the lag caused by item storage i imagine). But I found the fact that crafters had to team up with fighters for support and go on some form of expedition to an area a useful way to get people together.



  • @Jaaj:

    This new system i think will just perpetuate the riches of those with a trading monopoly (Those with storage space on the server) and reward higher level/geared players who can easily complete any of the tasks/scripted quests that need completing. These higher level/geared players therefore become even better geared thus increasing the player server goal towards getting higher levels to get enough gold to buy these great items.

    Views?

    I think you're over-estimating the advantage of storage. Storage doesn't really "enrich" a PC.

    What you will require to customize your gear can be found on any quests randomly. Higher level characters will find gear suitable to their level, but nothing over-powering.

    Bottom line, we expect the power level to remain roughly the same on the server–but improved in that people who didn't have access to a crafter can now get much the same gear (and far more actually) that it use to be the wealthier PCs could afford to buy.

    The sword example I used as well is an example of the most powerful item you could likely create.



  • The means by which to enchant items under the new system are meant to go within rewards for quests so it won't just be high levels getting it all but all levels of characters. That means all players regardless of their level, gear and abilities will have the opportunity to acquire what's needed to enchant their gear and customise it.

    If anything the new system will make it easier for who don't have storage space or better equipment to "compete"with other traders since you won't have to carry around big and heavy items that aren't useable by anyone. The random penalties might render the item useless for your particular character, it's a risk you have to take but it should also encourage trade amongst the player base with the gear graviting towards characters who can make best use of it.

    I don't believe that the changes will damage the server at all but rather change the dynamics of the server and as the DMs have said it's still going to be a low magic server set at the levels pretty much as they are with a few exceptions. What was given as an example was probably the highest end example of something that could be crafted by a player with some DM drops too. You can already buy +2 items vs a race, get +3 skill bonuses, +1 stat items, x1 day magic items all from NPCs so it's not like players can't already get these items anyway. It'll just provide a different way of acquiring it.



  • I want the ability to name a crafted item, and add a description.

    That would win my heart, get to work!



  • Storage is a massive bonus to this "second market" that you expect to occur from the creation of new items. Any player that wants to start a buisness is greatly hindered by what they can carry. As soon as you have bought enough items off players to make you encumbered (usually only takes one large weapon or bit of armour, unless you are some high str fighter class) your character is destined to walk slowly until he has sold some of it. This means your character merchant cant accompany anyone on quests or go to an inn to meet anyone without chucking the items off to someone they trust or making a very slow journey to their destination. Players with storage can buy these items, throw them in a box, free from the fear of items been pickpocketed while you are unable to run or not being able to join in a quest because you can barley move.

    How is storage not a massive deal for anyone that wants to play a merchant?



  • Two of the best traders on the server didn't have storage for a LONG LONG time. Temon and Trystan. They would out perform and out trade just about everyone else who had storage. Temon dealt with specailist items, he was probably the biggest scroll and trinket merchant the server has ever seen, and Trystan formed an entire company who are still going today long after his own death some of who were just big to help carry things and guard the merchants from pickpockets.

    The trick to being a merchant is picking your field that works for you or bringing in more people than just yourself so you can work co-operatively which can get past weight restrictions (if you choose to trade in heavy items). DM trade factions (the ones with storage) a lot of their wealth was generated by speciality items that only their faction could produce and those items weren't left in storage. Other DM factions who had storage often stored items not to sell but as rewards for the player base.

    Weight for weight weapons and armour are actually poor goods to be trading in anyway, they're not where the real money is.



  • The means by which to enchant items under the new system are meant to go within rewards for quests so it won't just be high levels getting it all but all levels of characters

    I fear that what you are suggesting is that perhaps there might be reward items of some form that are needed to enchant items. Therefore the weight will still be on gold? and thus those who can get hold of it. If these items are available to all levels, as in some items that can be recieved by lower levels in lower level quests then this might work.

    I'm not trying to be a doomsayer or anything by the wya, i think that adding different enchantments and different weapon bonuses is a great idea. I love this server thats why i'm still playing it after starting like 5 years ago, it's that reason I always fear change =p



  • Quite simple, servers need to change if they want to get even better and if they don't change they get stagnant.



  • Yeah i was around when Teamon Oak was a PC and Trystan was a player. If i remember rightly, Trystan basically delt in taking orders to craft items, not buying sets to sell from players. The new system will mean that heavy weapons etc will have to be carried before they are sold (obviously because you cant take an order to craft an item becuase theres no telling what the flaws etc will be).

    Dealing in light items like scrolls is easy. I've made thousands on Pip by dealing in scrolls and minor light magic items, thats perhaps why the DM's are not changing it, there doesn't seem to be many complaints with wand crafting, scroll scribing (infact scroll crafting has been streamlined alot since i played a while ago; when scrolls of the same inate level had different craft values).

    The new crafting system will require a second market traders to carry their goods before they sell them. Does this mean that any merchant group will need to hire bodyguards to just act as item mules if they dont have storage space? I suppose we have to be inventive as players and the best merchants are, but theres only so much you can carry as a player before it starts to get boring and you just resent the path you have chosen.



  • If you're roleplaying a merchant, there are options that can help you get storage for the most part–including factions that rent storage.



  • if you're roleplaying a merchant, there are options that can help you get storage for the most part–including factions that rent storage.

    I you are in a roleplay setting, why would you go to a main competitor and boost their income with coin and trust them with your items? You'd effectivley be working for them as they generally sell items for you and just take a cut.

    There would be further issues with the fact that a member of this faction would have to be online to pass the item to you so you could pass the item to the buyer. If the buyer went straight to the storage holder, this would further distance your merchant name from the buyer.

    Everything is against any trader who wants to deal with heavy goods, unless they can figure out a way of storing goods on other characters that they can get hold of easily. Its far more complicated than just hiring a bit of box space to hold some items.



  • When I played a Thond retainer there was a storage room at the Thousandheads Trading Coaster that was rented out by the house. That storage has been rented by a number of different groups in my time on CoA and was operated by providing a key to the storage area to the person/group renting it.

    The Dragoneye Merchant Consortium also had a similar setup.

    I think you might find that what Mr. Moloch is trying to say is that if you are involving other players as a merchant, and lack of storage is holding you back from furthering Adventure and Intrigue, the DMs might point you in the direction of an IC option to help you out.

    That or you could petition other players IG who have storage to rent some of theirs.



  • Jaaj, I've played a merchant years ago before anyone even had crafting. I didn't find a huge necessity in having it and made a considerable amount of gold and intrigue without storage.

    You may over-estimate it if you've never had access to it. Most factions with storage have a very set limit of how many items they can keep in it.

    Plus, there are plans in the work may make storage more readily available.



  • @Jaaj:

    Storage is a massive bonus to this "second market" that you expect to occur from the creation of new items.

    I totally agree. The fact that certain players will be able to buy as many of these new items, obviously providing that they have the funds to back it up, only to then store them away until people are willing to meet the price of their demand, only allows for a potential monopolization upon initial set-up of this new system.
    Speaking as a player who is currently trying to set up a merchant group on CoA, it can be very difficult to keep up with any of the leading groups who do already have this storage and -can- quite easily make or purchase a myriad of goods and then not then worry too much about having to sell these items on before they then venture out to make or get more…
    In contrast, a new group, such as mine, would have to take orders in advance due to weight restrictions. Already established merchant factions can often provide the same goods, pre-made, much faster due to their storage and group size.
    It also seems that a starting player wanting to work within a merchant group will often choose to work with a group that is already quite well established. Which means that the potential mules for new merchant factions are rarely seen, making it even harder for new groups to become more established.
    Anyway, I digress.
    Due to the hoarding nature of this storage system, I can not see how certain factions will not benefit from their storage, even more so, when the new craft system is in place.



  • Well I suppose i'm destined to sell light items to start with until some changes are made. My argument wasnt that without storage you cant play a merchant and create intrigue and fun for other players, just that storage really helps when you are buying heavy items from other players, or just generally when you are trading in armour. If storage is available IC that isnt supplied by merchants then i've never heard of it and I suppose I should seek it out IC.

    Thanks for all the input.


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