Dedagin Andagin last edited by
Id not dare call it any thing higher than that
SlushieConspiracy last edited by
I've always thought that LG paladins live on the opposite end of the Xanatos Gambit (google it, it's a real masterpiece of series writing). It makes them horrifically frustrating to play if you start looking at it too deeply, but this goes for LG character's too. The most subtle example of this is is the Clar Banda ascension plot– a few goodly characters thought (and were) doing the right thing by sacrificing some tears only to inadvertently forward Her ascension to godhood. Looking back, it was an amazing piece of plotting on the DM's part(s), because at the time it felt like everything was on the up and up.
That said, I try very hard to ignore the strictest LG, shining armor paladin archetype while still retaining the spirit of it. One of my most successful paladins was more of an anti-hero than a hero, but fucked if things weren't done. . . >_> That said, CG pallys or bust. The huge number of options you can make up on the spot and the flexibility by which you can accomplish them (within the spirit of the class) is pretty much wide open where as someone with a more rigid code of conduct will only see the A and B options. (Taking the player component out of this, mind you. It's hard to think outside the box sometimes.):
"Here are your two options: Save the bus full of kids or let marry jane die."
"Or... I tell my enchanter buddy to just Hold Monster your ass and I kick you in the junk before saving the day."
or in a more specific example:
the Life at stake is one innocent, say, a child. Fighting to the death will result in not only the Pally's death, but the child's as well. Refusing to aid the evil power will guarantee the lost life of the child. The Pally has no choice but to buckle and give the evil power what it wants. And what it wants is the lost mcguffin of the demon over lord spiffy macbabykiller. It not just his own life on the line, but an innocent child. is this an act of good, or an act of evil?
oops wait ,evil power plans on using this McGuffin to eradicate any semblance of Law and Good in the country. NOW what?
LG Paladin: Hands off the mcguffin to one of his allies and fights to the death anyway, trying to give time to his allies to get away.
LG Paladin: Destroys the mcguffin on the spot to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands, sends the child off running and dies heroically giving the child time to get away.
LG Paladin: Falls on his sword because this shit is too complicated.
LG Paladin at no point surrenders. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but he still /tries/.
CG Paladin: Starts a smear campaign painting babykiller as a hero of justice to discredit him among his peers, walks around with the mcguffin openly taunting him around guards and other goodly people. Openly daring him to attack while his allies go searching for the child in danger.
CG Paladin: Walks in to the encounter with a fake mcguffin and puts up a hell of a fight, 'loses', buying time for the child to escape, he may lose his life in the process, but the mcguffin is still safe.
CG Paladin: Destroys the mcguffin in front of mcbabykiller, keeps fighting trying to save the child, because he's still a paladin.
CG Paladin doesn't surrender his principles in the face of evil, though he may be discrete about how he enacts them, even going undercover to learn more about his enemy. At no point does he support their evil activities, but he still works his ass off to set things right.
That said, LG pallys can do a LOT of good with proper smarts, a bit of pre-planning and an inexhaustible supply of allies who'll support or at least tolerate your views. (Think Batman) The LG paladin could've run off to get support, form another party and retrace their steps back into the dark to find the source, refusing to heal or support the party that went with the evil for the sake of good. I've done that a few times with mixed results.
Fearmoho12 last edited by
In the last scenario I'd say the paladin was easiest and safest option was to leave the group but they shouldn't just forget about the original evil. Find out what happened after you left, research what you already saw from the adventure and find a way to stop them without the other evil's help.
Stay with the group keeping an eye on the new evil guy. Treat it as research and as a chance to get to know the PC in case you can find a way to redeem them or defeat them.
One or two jobs with an evil guy isn't too bad so long as you're only doing it to eventually defeat said evil. Paladins have wisdom and wisdom would tell you that knowing nothing about your enemy is worse than knowing their strengths and weaknesses.
I personally prefer the second option since it encourages a rivalry and more character interactions.
Regarding giving in to the bad guy; if you know you're going to die if you don't back down and you have the item he wants then he'll take it from your dead body. Either way the bad guy is most likely gonna get the item so it's then up to the paladin and the player what happens next. I see it as a mainly OOC decision at that point since one thing usually leads to an FD, which you may see as an end to your PC, and one thing leads to a longer story. If you think it's a fitting end for your PC then stand up one last time but if you're looking for more from your PC give in and try to save the world another day after your PC recovers. I would think that neither option would have you fall from grace but if it does it's part of the story.
I've never properly played a good-aligned PC though so I'm probably not the best source of advice >.>
Tomppa last edited by
These are the kinds of situations that I love IG, because these are where the CHARACTER must make the decicions.
Yes, Paladins generally do not work with evil. But when it is your friend's/innocent child's life at the stake, the character must weight which is more important - friendship, or the code he follows?
Paladin's are just the archetypical example because their code is so strict, but this works for every character that has princeples/ideals/code of conduct/morality.
A real example from IG:
My character was with his friends in a crypt. The friends were going to do something my character thought they -should not do- under any circumstances. My character was left with a choice: Aid them do what they want, because they are your friends - Or try to convince them to do it in slightly different, not so bad way, or oppose them directly because what they are doing is against his beliefs.
It was truly a horrible situation for the character, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
And this inner conflict, is what makes characters become alive, and makes them believeable. The only difference between my character and a paladin is that a paladin could lose his powers if he goes against his code of conduct. On the other hand, going with the code of conduct risks him losing his dear friend. For a regular character, the risks and losses are usually a lot smaller - losing friends for acting against them, versus betraying yourself and your beliefs - The stakes aren't as high, but it's practically the same situation.
Also, you need to remember that paladins represent TWO alignments, not just one - and these two alignments are sometimes in conflict with each other. Maybe acting to the benefit of the evil dude to save your friend is against the lawful part of your code, but doing -everything- you can to save an innocent life is usually a good act.
And I like to think that the gods (/dms) are often merciful, and rarely a single incident does result in complete loss of power.
As to the question regarding macguffin - You could also give it up to save the child for the immediate benefits, and then later do everything you can to fix your earlier failure by recovering the artifact.
Dead easy paladins are judged by cosmic good and evil not by mortal morals.
But your Quote was inaccurate"paladins must not work with evil" should read "Paladins must not aid evil"
Saving a life from a power you cannot defeat..
Knowing you cannot win go die as an example that evil must be stood against this is heroic and brave and how martyrs are made,so your going to die you should never beg for life and make every action stand out as strong and opposing those that are scum,remember you have no fear as your "GOD" protects your soul and you live to serve them at there mercy,paladins are true zealots.
Version 2.child sacrifice
You fight to save the child if you can even knowing you will lose or if fighting is not an option then the child dies,but you cannot go handing over the thing evil wants that would be giving aid to them,and that is against the basic code of not aiding evil the child may die but the blood is not on the paladins hands,he will feel grief but it is the right thing to do so by refusing the evil he has done cosmic good.
Lesser people ie normal people may think this is a cold hearted option but for a paladin it is the only option as he must oppose evil not just be nice,no one ever said being good was easy.
So a necromancer says let me come help,everyone knows he is evil everyone knows he performs some of the most vile and despised acts in the game world yet they want him along,to me that should grant those wanting him with them an instant alignment shift towards evil,as it says there characters condone his methods.
The paladin should demand the necromancer leave as good cannot be served by making such a disgusting and evil man more popular.
If the group is then clearly evil as in they want this most despised and hated kind of person with them the paladin should leave the group and make it known that all those in that group are evil and condone necromancy.
The final example is the servers fault rather than the players and as players and DM's on DM events we do not like excluding others,as a result what should be the most hated kind of person in the game world is met with indifference,and while this destroys immersion it allows others to play together,so it isn't really a moral choice that has happened but a game one.
Tomppa last edited by
Oh! I wanted to add that it is not/ the story is not about "choosing the right answer", but rather, about "making the hard choice". For some it's easier, if they are more/less of a zealot, but when the choices weight about the same, that's when it becomes interesting. The act of choosing, rather than the actual choice, is what's interesting.
Like most things in CoA, it's not about the end result, but the conflict itself, be it between characters, or inside a single character, that's interesting and creates a good story.
Also, consider a situation where paladin has the chance to slay a great evil once and for all, but doing so would mean he'd also slay his own god in the process. What to do? (and if you say that it's easy and that you'd slay your own god, add more good gods into the equation until it's a hard choice.)
Dedagin Andagin last edited by
I am loving this, ty all