Flamewar begin: How to improve the whole good vs evil thing?
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I was reading over LaF's posts earlier, regarding the whole DE business. I thought it was a sound suggestion. And he had his backside handed to him, being called whining and whatnot.
Such statements quite annoyed me. This game is 10 years old. Even if you like Dond started playing it when you were 10, you would be 20 now, and be thought to in the least be somewhat mature in your dealings over the internet.However, as my instructor at the university told me a few days ago, when I called him being pissed at having flunked my final paper he said "I always have faith that in the end, people are good and mean well."
So, what did I want to talk about?
The server has turned into something CoA has never seen before. Evil actually won, and sit on all the power. People like the cult, and Lavishfeast have "won CoA" if one can do such. And in doing so, black has become white, up is down etc.
Good is no longer the given alignment at creation. Now, I cannot actually see other peoples character sheets, so I will say "It isnt proactive good".
Because of this, some things need to be defined. Such as, how paladins are expected to behave in the current climate for one.Dond said, that a group of good guys could easily turn the tides. And I agree with him. A group of dedicated players can do anything, as the current setting shows well. However, how a group of CG vigilantes who kill off half the player base and become the new hero villians go about their business, and how say a group of paladins would, are two very different things entirely.
I dont know how to go about giving the evil establishment a run for their money atm. One, I dont have the time to invest, and two, I dont want to play a leader.
However, I believe a sound discussion, if such is still possible on CoA, without all the trolling, would definately be able to inspire those who want to, but cannot figure out how some assistance.
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Just do what happened to Gromfia, get 40 PC's to attack Arabel at once, if they win.
HOORAY
If they lose.
Lots of new people looking for concepts to make the Arabellian demon worshippers union, we support giving equal rights to pit fiends and their kin.
Our mottow is 'Who needs a soul when you have equality'
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Personally I'd like to see the server go even more to the dark side. I can't help but feel there's this idea that the LG phase of the server was some sort of 'Golden Age' of CoA that it should return to.
I also worry that the current evil alignment of the server isn't entrenched enough to ride out a transition phase if the current leaders were eliminated.
Finding out Veneith is secretly an agent for the Devil Dragon and the whole city being forced to bow down before such a supremely evil beast would be awesome in my book.
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I do believe you guys are either not reading what I am writing, or I have become horrible horrible at expressing myself these days.
I like a darker setting. I have wanted such for ages. AGES! While I would have loved a more (read much much much more) canon setting, I am thrilled if a setting can become darker.
However, I am not writing here, seeking advice on how to WIN the second battle of good vs evil. I am not trying to whine that Veneith sits on the throne, or that Greencastle holds East Arabel, or that the cormyrian embassy was slaughtered or that Flynn is gone, or that The Red Harts with Eveningstar is the last bastion of hope.
NOT IN THE LEAST!I am however, wanting a proper discussion of how "good" should be portrayed in a much darker setting, with a specific focus on LG and paladins in general.
Good means caring for the world, feeling their pain, wishing to make the world better, not necessarily seeing the needs of one self more important than the need of others.
Lawful means a belief and valued norm of structure, of order. It means following a code of conduct, believing that systems work, and are the best approach to society as a whole. That laws are there for a reason, and while bad laws should be changed, the general consensus is that rules should be followed.
Now, a guy who believes in the above, is suddenly seeing a corrupt government. Evil, the very thing you oppose sits on every pillar of power. They create the laws, they enforce them. They have the strength to enforce them.
And in general, the populace currently loves the very same government.-That- is what I sought a discussion of. What avenues and paths are upon to goodly characters now?
Can a paladin work alongside the law, when the paladin knows full well, that while he may help the sheriff apprehend a murderer, the sheriff will in about 10 minutes be handing over the 40 bloodstones he confiscated to the sheriff associated bloodstone salesman for distribution?
How is it goodly behaviour, if the paladin helps apprehend a necromancer, yet the necromancer is then enslaved to create undead zombies to work the fields on behalf of the system? Or is whipped and tortured.
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After reading your second post, all I can think of is "Batman".
And not trying to troll or anything (its hard for me to really do) but, I'd definitely suggest people looking into different aspects of literature and media for new ideas they could steal. I mean, Arabel is fucking gothem city, and Kreswell is like the Kingpin. If you can't wriggle some kinda concept out of the server that now equals to what is seen in comic books, then you just playing the game wrong.
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am however, wanting a proper discussion of how "good" should be portrayed in a much darker setting, with a specific focus on LG and paladins in general.
Good means caring for the world, feeling their pain, wishing to make the world better, not necessarily seeing the needs of one self more important than the need of others
I do believe that is left up to the role player.. You can attempt to help the suffering, and and punish the wicked, you can even do so lawfully in an evil setting. What I mean by "its up to the role player" is that they must make the choice of hiding their intentions, surviving via cloak and dagger, or by taking the crusader route. All that has happened in raising the danger level for these characters. They can still play by the rules, and function, it just won't be handed to them so lightly, and they should think beyond their most obvious of functions and aim for long term goals.
This was always the case for Badguys. Leaping first was a good way to get caught.. plotting for the long run gives you a shot. It will be the same for "Good"
(is this the discussion you were looking for? it is 5:00am here, and i haven't slept. Its probable that you're shooting over my head..) -
After reading your second post, all I can think of is "Batman".
And not trying to troll or anything (its hard for me to really do) but, I'd definitely suggest people looking into different aspects of literature and media for new ideas they could steal. I mean, Arabel is fucking gothem city, and Kreswell is like the Kingpin. If you can't wriggle some kinda concept out of the server that now equals to what is seen in comic books, then you just playing the game wrong.
I have never seen you this constructive B-rock. It frightens me somewhat!
I do catch your drift however, and I like it. I hadnt pictured it in such a way, and I appreciate it.
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Lose the 'Defeatist' attitude. Good haven't lost, nor have evil won. Some things have gone evil's way but they don't boss the server. Just start taking the fight up by the neck and doing things rather than worrying where the DM is with the plots for that to happen. Go find those you think to be 'evil' and kick thier asses, you don't need a DM to create intrigue. Create the group that takes down the evil crews or join one.
I think the problem is stale good guys and they just don't procure the interest they should. We have few DM's these days and I can't speak for them but im sure spending time with Pally 'The Pal' Paladin is boring. Good needs to be turned over by some players and made fresh again. Everyone is talking about Paladins leading the way but far as I can remember none have done so in the past. Or at least not for a while. There are plenty of cool Good ways to go about winning it back you don't have to be 'IM GOOD, YOU'RE EVIL. LET US FIGHT'. Characters can be evil and still do good things, they just go about it in all the wrong ways
Steer away from the Good vs. evil and go into the Law vs Chaos imo.
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From my perspective, evil was fun before because it was "the underdog". Now all of a sudden good seems a lot more inviting because it's more unique a character trait - not to say that evil has taken over the server so completely that it isn't special - evil tends to be a lot more competitive within itself than good, so I think the current setting is a great change of pace.
The very nature of good is that it is inspiring - when you see the noble warrior giving his companions time to escape by fighting off the orc horde to his last breath; the holy priest watching everything he holds dear being torn from him but still refusing to surrender his faith or stop aiding those he can to maintain theirs; the publicly branded rebel who is hunted by all and sundry for the bounty placed on his head by the ruling powers, who still refuses to stop biting at their ankles or giving up the fight because he has already surrendered his life to try and bring down the corrupt regime. Heck, the private investigator who puts up a front of neutrality but secretly hatches plots and gathers evidence in his basement with which to expose the true nature of other characters who decieve others into thinking they are virtuous - maybe even something like the movie "Phone Booth".
Good has never had it so good. What time better than when evil is top dog to show everyone at least one goodly heart still beats in Arabel, and for every one that does evil's future reign forever remains on the brink of usurpation?
The big one for me is this:
Before, good and neutral were by and large indistinguishable - only evil was really well defined and easy to categorize. You looked at a law enforcer before and your two options would be whether to call him Good/Neutral or Evil; deciding between Good and Neutral was much more difficult. Now you can look at a character and categorize them a LOT more precisely, because suddenly being Good is most certainly not the same as being Neutral. A Goodly character can't just sit on his laurels, he knows that his side is on the decline, he knows he has to do something, rebel in whatever small way is possible - as opposed to the neutral character who at best will avoid participating in truly evil acts, like making bloodstones. -
I remember a time when people complained there was no evil. They asked where Team Evil was, or asked why evil was always in the slums. Evil was hard to play back then, and now its the opposite where good is hard to play. No one can ever say Arabel doesn't change!
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Saying Batman is just LG is lol btw.
Good vs Evil is so boring, too. Good vs Good or Evil vs Evil is more interesting in my eyes, but I rarely see that happening.
All evil or all good will end up joining up for a good ol' gank at some point down the line!
^_^
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not that batman is LG but he fights for justice in a evil corrupted setting in alot of power
maybe we dont need quote LG to lead, but more CG with LG riding the wake
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too small
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The story of my life :cry:
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it's early days and the new setting is still in flux.
To me anyhow, CoA is now more about the other strand of alignment, chaos vs lawful.
We can argue till the cows come home, or we can just play the game. Else me, Caek and Lavish will roll up some Paladins and show you how it's done.
(Oh, and welcome back Olouth.)
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time for the feral hin invasion
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I hate this good vs evil argument i really do because it stupid the only person i can think of on the top of my head who i call "Good to the core" in real modern day would be Mother Teresa.
Every character a Shade of grey this i hope after so long we evolved from when we picked up our first game and said "Oh that's my guy, Oh that's the bad guy"
Rolling a paladin does not automatically make you Good or "Lawful" The same can be said for Necromancer it's a dumb stereotype.
rant over
People like the new faction because it either new, Gets a lot of Dm attention or both. We are not V2 anymore with the exception of Rav (and maybe one or two others i can't think of) i yet to see a character this year last more then 2 months.
That's it from me see you in another 2 months
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I hate this good vs evil argument i really do because it stupid the only person i can think of on the top of my head who i call "Good to the core" in real modern day would be Mother Teresa.
Every character a Shade of grey this i hope after so long we evolved from when we picked up our first game and said "Oh that's my guy, Oh that's the bad guy"
Rolling a paladin does not automatically make you Good or "Lawful" The same can be said for Necromancer it's a dumb stereotype.
rant over
People like the new faction because it either new, Gets a lot of Dm attention or both. We are not V2 anymore with the exception of Rav (and maybe one or two others i can't think of) i yet to see a character this year last more then 2 months.
That's it from me see you in another 2 months
Gandhi you somewhat evil bastard you! Only mother Tereasa was truely good in the real world!
He's somewhat right I suppose. Though I would like to see more militaristic paladins running about doing stuff.
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@O'louth:
However, how a group of CG vigilantes who kill off half the player base and become the new hero villians go about their business, and how say a group of paladins would, are two very different things entirely.
I don't see why a CG team would kill off half the player base anymore than a LG would. Or a CE team for that matter. Being chaotic good doesn't automatically mean you outright kill every evil guy you know of, it may simply mean you don't like to get orders, and don't like everyone else taking orders.
From what I know, most good factions have been LG where the leader pretty much ruled everything and the rest of the pcs simply obeyed. To me, it gets boring. A good faction where there is a lot of internal conflict because its members won't accept that one person decides what the faction will do would be far more interesting imho. It would be even better if the faction actually has difficulties to work because of it (it would take time to reach a consensus about what to do, some members may decide not to go along with the decisions anyway, or act on the faction's back).
About how to go about fighting evil, well I guess the more logical course of action is to join with Lhal's forces and then weaken the current regime in Arabel in any possible manner to pave the way for a future invasion (sabotage, assassination, bribe, etc).
However, more lawful characters could simply try to get accepted in the system, ascend, and then change it from inside… shrugs