Starting Level 6th
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Folks, we've looked at our starting level quests. They are antithetical to our vision for CoA right now.
What we want, ideally, is an average server level where players can interact and do quests together. Most quests done right now are geared toward players around level 7-10 (our current average level). This means most players log in a new character, spend a few hours trying to get to six or seven so they can do quests with other players.
So we're going to just let people start at level 6, and remove our low-level quests--then either redesign them as 6-11th level quests or replace them with new 6-11th level quests. This is honestly the first step toward increasing the server to function with 9-11 being the average level and the level cap ultimately moving to 14.
We'd hoped to set it all up this way for v6, but with NWNEE beating us getting v6 done (we'd aimed for May or June and not March) we should start implementing this now to take advantage of NWNEE and an influx of new players by making sure our module is designed to make sense from a game play format. It doesn't right now.
I'm posting this up again because the DMs are agreed on this, but we want to hear player's ideas before it is fully implemented in case some positive and constructive ideas help us improve this idea.
Also:
1). You can not drop below level 6 via death or dying.
2). Players will start the game with 13,000 gold to spend in the starting area on gear (this is the D&D standard amount of gold for a level 6 starting PC). Typical D&D starting gear will be available, potions, scrolls, etc.
3). Players who are not currently level 6 will be able to level back up to six. -
As long as the starting store is fairly robust, I think it's a good idea. Toss in a few magical items (nothing you'd consider special) and some rarer consumables. A similar note, albeit different subject: the starting area really does need an improvement (from the last several years, not sure if its changed in 6 months). The magic mirror in the DM area for modifying your appearances should be present there so that people can make the changes they want. Just flatly state: no wings or crazy non-sense without approval. And if that mirror doesn't do armor modifications (it should if it doesn't), include dyes in the starting store.
On topic: it's a good idea. D&D is a communal game, and especially so when you consider that we aren't 55/55 for twenty two hours a day anymore. That was an MMO, this is just a persistent campaign setting, so players should be relatively on par even starting out. In early v4, and in v3, when level 6 was high level and level 7 was reserved for those epic cool guys, starting out really weak (and staying there forever) was fine... but that's not the vibe anymore. Being weak is boring.
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PUffy is redoing the starting area to make it cleaner and friendlier; so you can follow one path if you're newer and get hints/guides/history or just skip it all if you want to get straight to the stores (which will be the default ones D&D designed for Bioware to use for level 6 PCs).
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I am not a fan of this. Maybe if the person has been with us for a few months and is an option. I like PCs starting off small
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@zargen-of-zandor said in Starting Level 6th:
I am not a fan of this. Maybe if the person has been with us for a few months and is an option. I like PCs starting off small
I get what your trying to say here.
The thing is, it's relative. Level 6 is still "Low" level, and the higher levels are also going UP, so... it means you still start small, comparitively, it's just, you aren't a blank slate with half a skill and minus five feats :P
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Nearly done with the new starter area, just got the store left
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Something I suggest is that gold not spent in starting area is stripped on entering module proper, so its spent gearing up, not saved.
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would be useful to have a reasonable amount of scrolls available there too
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@savn said in Starting Level 6th:
Something I suggest is that gold not spent in starting area is stripped on entering module proper, so its spent gearing up, not saved.
Excellent idea.
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As I understand it, the reason why we're thinking of increasing the levelrange on coa is because we're looking to give players more content to play around with, and more levels to play through...
Adding more content at the upper levels while removing it from the lower levels kind-of misses the point I find. If the goal is to add more levels at which people can play through, and give people more stuff to do through those levels, then removing levels in order to justify removing content geared towards those levels is taking a step in the opposite direction.
It seems the main issue is that low level quests aren't cutting it in the "fun to do" and "feels like you matter" department, because you obviously shouldn't be saving the world at level 3. I think that's fine though, starting humble makes you appreciate the concept more, everyone wants to start with everything.... But that just cheapens the entire experience I find.
Just like how everyone wants to start at max level with the best gear, but if you did.... you'd get bored.
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I'm guessing the idea is to bring the level range together more so players don't get isolated until they reach an averagish level.
Perhaps with starting at level 6 the buff bot can now be removed?
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@chips said in Starting Level 6th:
As I understand it, the reason why we're thinking of increasing the levelrange on coa is because we're looking to give players more content to play around with, and more levels to play through...
Adding more content at the upper levels while removing it from the lower levels kind-of misses the point I find. If the goal is to add more levels at which people can play through, and give people more stuff to do through those levels, then removing levels in order to justify removing content geared towards those levels is taking a step in the opposite direction.
It seems the main issue is that low level quests aren't cutting it in the "fun to do" and "feels like you matter" department, because you obviously shouldn't be saving the world at level 3. I think that's fine though, starting humble makes you appreciate the concept more, everyone wants to start with everything.... But that just cheapens the entire experience I find.
Just like how everyone wants to start at max level with the best gear, but if you did.... you'd get bored.
2-12 seems to be our current range.
6-14 is much smaller rangeThat's the thinking there really. Player survey really shows people wanted a slightly higher level but not too high. A narrower range makes it easier to build quests.
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@dinolore said in Starting Level 6th:
I'm guessing the idea is to bring the level range together more so players don't get isolated until they reach an averagish level.
Perhaps with starting at level 6 the buff bot can now be removed?
A level 6 pc is going to feel 10 times more isolated when side by side with a level 15 pc, than a level 2 pc is going to be next to a level 9.
And if we're talking about starting pc's participating in stuff meant for the server average level, a level 2 or 3 pc would have an easier time doing a quest geared around level 6-8. Rather than a level 6 pc trying to survive a quest geared around level 11-13 pc's.
At-least if we're going around coa's current metric.
@Mr-Moloch said
2-12 seems to be our current range.
6-14 is much smaller rangeI was told 6-16 but with a semi cap at 14.
My real concern is that scaling in D&D tends to get out of hand at higher levels, and there are some rather solid barriers that separate these level ranges which didn't/shouldn't exist in coa's current level range.
Damage reduction that exceeds what a player can give himself via GMW spells for example, in coa aside from stoneskin (which expires from being hit often enough) the only DR a player aught to be able to give himself is blurr (and almost every caster class has access to basic magic weapon).
Once you pass the threshhold of level 11+, some casters get Dr/+3, and monks get spell resistance, the likes that only pc's of their level range could/should/would be able to contend with. These are the type of stats that don't just make it difficult for lowbies to deal with, they make it nearly impossible, if PvE mobs are given these things as well (so that they can challenge/contend with the adventurers) then again, you've got monsters that lowbies simply can't face...at all.
We can balance some of this stuff I'm sure, but this is just one of many many many factors that make higher levels much more difficult to balance than coa's current level range.
Tl;Dr: The difference between level 11+ and under 10 is absolutely huge and can segragate the two level ranges into different categories altogether, splitting the playerbase in two when it comes to what they can/can't do together mechanically.
Honorable mentions of things that can cull lower level pc's (for the sake of maybe balancing them, if not convincing people to stick to a better levelrange)
- Circle of death (Will straight up kill anyone under level 9, anyone above that is perfectly safe/immune)
- Word of faith (Has a bunch of crazy effects liable to get people killed, the lower level you are, the more effects this spell has against you, anyone under level 11 is basically screwed if this hits them, anyone above is just mildly inconvenienced)
- Globes of invulnerability: (This spell gets progressively less useful the higher level you get, as people get spells of higher circles which works well against them. But any pc under level 10 can't reliably spam spells that'd circumvent globes, aside from trying to dispel it)
I can probably add 30 more things to this list but my pizza's about to arrive. So in closing.
CoA's current level range already has some issues with higher level pc's being strong enough that low level pc's have trouble being relevant around them on events/quests, or conflicting against them in pvp. But if the level range increases, "trouble contending with" becomes "Simply can't contend with"
You get hard stats like DR's and straight up immunities, that while counterable still, do stack the odds more than ever before in favor of the guy who can powerlevel. -
@chips said in Starting Level 6th:
@dinolore said in Starting Level 6th:
I'm guessing the idea is to bring the level range together more so players don't get isolated until they reach an averagish level.
Perhaps with starting at level 6 the buff bot can now be removed?
A level 6 pc is going to feel 10 times more isolated when side by side with a level 15 pc, than a level 2 pc is going to be next to a level 9.
And if we're talking about starting pc's participating in stuff meant for the server average level, a level 2 or 3 pc would have an easier time doing a quest geared around level 6-8. Rather than a level 6 pc trying to survive a quest geared around level 11-13 pc's.
At-least if we're going around coa's current metric.
At least in terms of quests: a level 2 currently can not quest with a level 9 due to caps. A level 2 has no HP and no abilities. A level 6 has enough HP to survive a couple of stray bolts, elemental protection to save vs stray fireballs. Equip a bow and you'll be able to tag along. Mages at lvl 6 can fling some spells or buffs around. Level 2 is just useless to a level 9. So I strongly disagree with that but your comparing worst case scenario, but in your worst case scenario a level 15 mage or cleric is going to have an easier time keeping a level 6 safe, stoneskin elemental resistance. You are hopefully going to have a average in there that's not necessarily at the cap. Keeping in mind level 6 is the starting level and you'll progress more smoothly up. Its more likely to be level 6's tagging along with level 9-10's not jumping straight to the extreme. Where as currently a level 2 does not tag along, they go into isolation until they go through the early quests. Also keep in mind the level cap is still the same at the moment so what's the average level? Level 6s will be jumping in with them?
Obviously there is going to need to be a lot of rebalancing that's why it was being saved for v6 but plans have changed with EE.
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Having a nice variety of cheap armor dyes in the starting store might be a nice addition for people who like to make their characters look they way they imagined right off the bat.
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My suggestion for v6 would be a caravan themed prologue, optional I guess so players are not forced to repeat it.
But in the mean time a nice orderly open road to Arabel area with all required customization features.
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@dinolore said in Starting Level 6th:
My suggestion for v6 would be a caravan themed prologue, optional I guess so players are not forced to repeat it.
But in the mean time a nice orderly open road to Arabel area with all required customization features.
Working on it :)
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I wouldn't auto go for 13,000 gold because it say it in the DnD book. Balance it against starting kit prices and see how well armed you can make pcs.
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As someone suggested strip any left over gold once leaving the road to Arabel. That'll sort a lot of early balance concerns. You'll only be able to equipt what's available at the start
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As long as shop prices are set properly, the gold amount is ultimately irrelevant! It could be 200k and still be the exact same scenario as 5k : )