Raising Server Numbers
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Totally, the more DMs the better. Always been the case!
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@O-louth said in Raising Server Numbers:
That is fair Puffy, and a good idea. But you Cannot carry the whole Europe time zone on your own. If a second EU based DM could be found however, might also mean less burned out DM.
rip Sithspawn :( I deam myself cursed, I get one and then they die! (maybe not die, but that's technialities)
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Sadly we're unaware, most likely RL.
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Tl;dr: a lot of rambling nonsense to say a community that doesn’t take care of itself, each other and its play spaces doesn’t usually last.
I really don’t have much to contribute to a discussion that’s been opened up again and again since sometime around the mid-tail end of V3 except to say that and over reliance on DM’s to provide a curated experience or to arbitrate things puts the onerous on them to provide said experiences and makes for lazy player psychology-- this takes a lot of forms in not feeling you can do anything without a DM (itself kind of poisonous in its own way), relying on DM’s to provide weight to your plot and make it ‘real’ (poisonous for the same reasons) or being able to /do/ more than collect 10 bear asses and hope some DM takes interest.
This, to me, is the biggest problem with the CoA ecosystem and has been consistently dogging the community as long as I’ve been here. It was that same problem that destroyed a server I used to run- lack of player ability to guide, direct and resolve plots on their own or in groups.
It’s unrealistic to expect everyone and their mother to know how to do those things, just as it’s unrealistic to expect DM’s to be able to pull a toolkit out of their ass that’ll allow for every eventuality a player might want to attempt.
The discussion on how to improve both situations has been had, and done pretty well I think, but in the same way the Linux and open source community tend to start projects and massive undertakings with the best of intentions and skill, without a champion(s) /and/ the skills to bring those things out, they inevitably get left by the wayside and business carries on as usual- good and ill. That old chestnut of ‘problem: we have 14 competing standards, we should make one unifying one! Problem, there are now 15 competing standards’
To be honest, my big reason for leaving this last time was precisely that: knowing any progress we gained going forward is going to be drip fed by DM’s because the things I wanted to do going forward weren’t in the module at all. In this particular case, a shrine to Grumbar. It was the only thing that was explicitly necessary to push this forward. Sure, could’ve just said ‘it’s not there, we can do something else,’ but. . .
I don’t have the patience and wherewithal to go ahead with plans that’re going to amount to ‘collect bear asses’ and submitting them to a DM when I feel we’ve ‘earned’ our way. Killing elder earth elementals and other stuff is fine and fun and adventurous, but in the end it becomes a quantitative checkbox rather than a natural part of a developing plot. . . .why am I going to do that when I could just go play another game that’s already had the development time and effort put in and I know my time will be spent enjoying a cool story?
We all want different things from our gaming experiences, to my mind the solution for a player deficit isn’t going to be one thing, it’s going to be several- probably a lot of little things. Most of which have been expressed (far better, no doubt) in other threads about ‘what people want’. Those things take time to develop, but you have (or had) players willing to help do the grunt work. Except that’s not what the DM team seems to want- they want to maintain control and do it themselves.
Fine and good until the people that could no longer have the time (or desire) to do so. To my mind it boils down simply to this: we all want the same thing- a fun, vibrant, and welcoming place to spend our gaming time and we know how we want that to look (vaguely), with a bit of refinement and teamwork we could make something that’d be pretty amazing.
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@TheTwistingWind said in Raising Server Numbers:
Tl;dr: a lot of rambling nonsense to say a community that doesn’t take care of itself, each other and its play spaces doesn’t usually last.
I really don’t have much to contribute to a discussion that’s been opened up again and again since sometime around the mid-tail end of V3 except to say that and over reliance on DM’s to provide a curated experience or to arbitrate things puts the onerous on them to provide said experiences and makes for lazy player psychology-- this takes a lot of forms in not feeling you can do anything without a DM (itself kind of poisonous in its own way), relying on DM’s to provide weight to your plot and make it ‘real’ (poisonous for the same reasons) or being able to /do/ more than collect 10 bear asses and hope some DM takes interest.
This, to me, is the biggest problem with the CoA ecosystem and has been consistently dogging the community as long as I’ve been here. It was that same problem that destroyed a server I used to run- lack of player ability to guide, direct and resolve plots on their own or in groups.
It’s unrealistic to expect everyone and their mother to know how to do those things, just as it’s unrealistic to expect DM’s to be able to pull a toolkit out of their ass that’ll allow for every eventuality a player might want to attempt.
The discussion on how to improve both situations has been had, and done pretty well I think, but in the same way the Linux and open source community tend to start projects and massive undertakings with the best of intentions and skill, without a champion(s) /and/ the skills to bring those things out, they inevitably get left by the wayside and business carries on as usual- good and ill. That old chestnut of ‘problem: we have 14 competing standards, we should make one unifying one! Problem, there are now 15 competing standards’
To be honest, my big reason for leaving this last time was precisely that: knowing any progress we gained going forward is going to be drip fed by DM’s because the things I wanted to do going forward weren’t in the module at all. In this particular case, a shrine to Grumbar. It was the only thing that was explicitly necessary to push this forward. Sure, could’ve just said ‘it’s not there, we can do something else,’ but. . .
I don’t have the patience and wherewithal to go ahead with plans that’re going to amount to ‘collect bear asses’ and submitting them to a DM when I feel we’ve ‘earned’ our way. Killing elder earth elementals and other stuff is fine and fun and adventurous, but in the end it becomes a quantitative checkbox rather than a natural part of a developing plot. . . .why am I going to do that when I could just go play another game that’s already had the development time and effort put in and I know my time will be spent enjoying a cool story?
We all want different things from our gaming experiences, to my mind the solution for a player deficit isn’t going to be one thing, it’s going to be several- probably a lot of little things. Most of which have been expressed (far better, no doubt) in other threads about ‘what people want’. Those things take time to develop, but you have (or had) players willing to help do the grunt work. Except that’s not what the DM team seems to want- they want to maintain control and do it themselves.
Fine and good until the people that could no longer have the time (or desire) to do so. To my mind it boils down simply to this: we all want the same thing- a fun, vibrant, and welcoming place to spend our gaming time and we know how we want that to look (vaguely), with a bit of refinement and teamwork we could make something that’d be pretty amazing.
Good points.
We actually do want help from players to make stuff though.
It's not the team wanting draconian levels of control or anything, it's a combination of things like: complex intertwined systems from years of modifications making it hard for someone without direct access to the module to untangle, and, working on a large rebuild of the server haks, and various elements, which are extremely tough to keep organised even with a small team.
Once the current project is done though, it might be easier to get player made content happening in a much more viable way.
I hope anyway.
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IMO. If players could set themselves up, it would be no big deal. Players roll and quit all the time. We don't need apps for every powerful race. We don't need apps for knights or factions. We need to be trusted as players to make our fun.
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App week proved we'd have a city of tieflings and werecreatures. Nein. Applications are essential to preserve the "Specialness" of these races.
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@SpiffyHas only at first. The surge would die down.
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@SpiffyHas the same way it died down in apples post. The one you completely agreed with. Appless races ((not all of them obviously)) are fine.
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Apples post concluded a metaplot is the best way to sustain and maintain interest. That is what I was agreeing with- I am not opposed to appless week being a regular thing like, 1-2 a year, but I am against it being the norm for subraces and dm factions.
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@SpiffyHas I think players are tired of being treated like children when it comes to character creation. I see this model function well in Arelith. There are not dozens of powerful races around. There is not a glutt of DM faction members. It's all the normal scum elves and humans you see always. The newness of no apps will wear off. But it will bring players in to OPPOSE those monsters which wander our streets. We had...three teiflings? Who cares? One of them lasted? So what? The freedom to choose brings in people.
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I think people has it right there. When appless subraces only lasts a week, of course you'll see a massive swarm of people taking advantage of it. For people who don't like to app, they see it as a rare chance to get to play something special, and they rushed to take advantage of it while it was there even if they didn't have a fully fleshed out concept. If more subraces were moved to appless or "app-lite", there wouldn't be as much urgency to seize the opportunity, and you'd see less swarms and more well-thought-out and lasting concepts.
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@solarfall yes. I had a plot fall flat on it's face and then die a quiet death via public notice. I'm not blaming anyone, but it took a lot of the wind out of my sails, Nd at least one other player.
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No one is treating you like children. The assumption that applications are there to 'keep the player down' is erroneous and incorrect. It's to ensure that races such as tiefling, aasimar, Genasi, etcetera, are rare and special. I don't play Arelith- I don't care about Arelith, and I don't see why we need to do what Arelith does. I am willing to steal good ideas, but I remain unconvinced letting players play Lycanthropes, tieflings, and aasimar- as well as other subraces is a good idea without some manner of oversight to ensure that the server doesn't become a City of Subraces- which is what App-Week proved it would be. Perhaps if app-week lasted longer we'd have seen fewer people asking for such things, but I felt a distinct amount of irritation when two tieflings were comparing tails in the spire and that such races who are known for being prosecuted by even the most well-meaning of people were casually chilling with such persons.
DMs are more than willing to help with applications if they aren't otherwise busy. Other players are often willing to lend advise. Talk to players such as CB, Applefritos, and others who often get their applications passed.
Of course, this is but one dms opinion, perhaps other dms feel like the server could move onto a more 'app-lite' structure for certain subraces. Maybe need the approval of only two dms instead of the entire team. There is room for compromise in this regard and I am willing to yield ground if the team wishes a more liberal approach to applications- but I think the system we currently possess is just fine, despite its flaws.
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@SpiffyHas you put a lot of words in my mouth. I don't care that you don't care about Arelith. They have a system that works well. That's why we should consider doing what they do. Because they have forty players and we three. That's why Spiffy.
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@people said in Raising Server Numbers:
@SpiffyHas you put a lot of words in my mouth. I don't care that you don't care about Arelith. They have a system that works well. That's why we should consider doing what they do. Because they have forty players and we three. That's why Spiffy.
I'm not sure if emulating arelith would help much, they do what they do very well, so it's unlikely we'd be able to compete directly.
It might be better to look at things they don't offer, or haven't put as much effort into, and work on things like that.
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@Zool I'd not suggest doing Arelith 2. I agree. But they allow a level of autonomy there that is light years beyond here.
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@SpiffyHas said in Raising Server Numbers:
App week proved we'd have a city of tieflings and werecreatures. Nein. Applications are essential to preserve the "Specialness" of these races.
We also saw several faction members too! Not everyone makes a subrace, but given they are the harder apps to pass, those who aren't good at apps jump at the chance. People play monsters because of the "specialness"!
Some of us are still playing them, so don't knock us all.
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Sorry Kham and anyone else that feels this way but I do not buy into "Not good at apps" You want something special, put some effort into it or it's not special.
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There is a channel that a DM loiters in specifically to help with concepting/apps
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The DMs have said time and time again that there are willing to help, not do, but help.
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There is a format and example of how to complete an app. If the app at first does not pass then there is feedback and suggestions
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The two most enjoyable characters in recent memory that I've played were one app and one non-app.
Speaking to the "not good at _______" for years I have made no secret that I am not good at mechanical pvp. This time back around I just decided that I am going to learn the mechanics. What I've come to realize is that I can be good at pvp, maybe become very good if I set my mind to it. "I don't enjoy mechanical as much as other aspects of the server"
So if the statement becomes "I don't like apps" or "I don't want to put in the work to get an app passed for something special", that's is a worthwhile conversation about the app system.
Now as to the suggestion etc
- summer is nearing its conclusion which will mean an increase in numbers.
- there are many things seemingly going on behind the scenes to improve the enjoyment level of the server which I would like more specific and frequent updates.
- if there was a more transparent way, benchmark system to allow for earn in game stuff to not take months, I'd be all in favor of that.
Cheers all,
Geek -
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I think we need more starting gold and swamp women, that'll get things kicked into gear.