Thoughts about playing stats with a negotiater.
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Yeah I know the subject of playing stats has been talked to death repeatedly on these forums but it is probably one of those things that you just gotta keep thinking about every so often just to ensure you are doing it right.
Anyhow I created a charecter I wanted to be a bit of a diplomat. I wanted to negotiate and make alot of deals in the game. I was not looking so much for a big leader as much as a power broker or information trader ect…a real middle person so to say. So I started out with a decent charisma a really good INT score and pretty much points in every social Skill, Bluff, Persuade being the highest. With points in appraise intimidate and taunt. I also kinda wanted abit of a risk taker of a charecter someone a tad crazy and reckless at times I always find that trait alot of fun to play so I went with a lousy Wis stat of 8. After creating my charecter playing for a good while and having my first real negotiation. I began to think man perhaps wisdom really important for this did i act more wisely than i should in these negotiations.
I feel like there is a bit of ambiguity between Intelligence, Wisdom and charisma and the social skills when it comes to negotiating verius things. So just how important is Wisdom to a talking charecter. I have all the Int Charisma and social skills i think i need but lack for wisdom.
I suppose the rub for me is mainly how Int and wisdom differs on charecter interactions. A smart person who has clearly studied personal interaction IE social skills of all variety. Should clearly know things about what commonly motivates people this is clearly knowledge based. Though this seems like something that is intuition based as well.
So basicly i am confused on Wisdom vs Intelligence in these sort of social interactions. Anything i can think of seems like it can be argued as in the domain of both smart or wise since playing things intelligently seems like being wise at times to me.
Another thing i am wondering about is in the area of when you settle the deal you may be haggling back forth on a deal. Wisdom i understand effects will power. It is the stat for the will save after all. Since i have a low wis stat does this mean I would cave in easily in negotiations or is that more of the pervue of charisma which beyond how others see you is also your inner strength of person.
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My gut tells me that, while Intelligence is certainly important for a good negotiator, Wisdom is probably more so. Someone can be plenty smart, but horribly lacking in common social graces that come naturally to someone with better Wisdom.
It's not enough to outclass your opponent, you need to be able to make them see your side. Someone with high intelligence would likely only be seen as snooty.
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is'nt that what the persuade skill does though. You make them see your side of the argument. Also is'nt social graces and being snooty or not a matter of charisma.
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I'm not really thinking in skills here. I'd imagine all three abilities would be important for being a good negotiator.
In terms of which would be most important, in orders…
Probably Charisma, Wisdom, then Intelligence. That's just my take, anyway.
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Honestly for a negotiater, i've seen some really dumb people make an idea sound really appeasing, I would say charisma is the most important, followed by the other two based on the level of complexity of what is being negotiated.
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intelligence means you know what you want, but i see wisdom as your counter to their persuade/bluff skill?
So yes you need a decent score in it, not necessarily high , but at least reasonable.
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Well not being wise would be like.. Someone you probably shouldn't have told that much info to. Or maybe you do some deals with the wrong people. But I think that it isn't really even important to be a broker of information. As long as your role playing your disadvantages there shouldn't be a problem. (by that I don't mean go kill someone because your not "wise enough to know the difference" but to make some stupid decisions every once In awhile) otherwise I think anybody can do anything. With any stats. They just have to either have horrible downsides and great upsides. Or be totally in the middle. shrug just an opinion.
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who needs dipmlomacy when you can beat the bastard down then take his stuff… I mean that historicly worked bunchs of times and who are we to argue with history?
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who are we to argue with history?
Americans
But Americans are who perfected the Beat-Down methods
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So prettymuch anybody who has ever seen any of the Bourne movies.
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I think we're proving my point here. Anyways chaos ensues..my work here is compelete!
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Anyway here is how I see it when it comes down to talking and those stats.
Charisma: Smoothe Talking or something to keep the Listener interested
Wisdom: When to push a point or not, How to probe them for more Info.
Intellect: General knowledge about what your talking baout
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Charisma is by -far- the most important stat in any social interaction your character does. Even if you have a poor argument, or dont know alot about a subject, charisma and giving off a good vibe, one that makes the other person feel they can, and more important want to trust and rely on you will do more for getting your way then any amount of logical arguments.
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I'd say a good wisdom is a must. Just because your character has good wisdom doesn't mean he is overly cautious, lacking in boldness and not a risk taker.
High wisdom would mean that he could be a risk taker, but only when the risks would justify the end results. Rather than just being reckless, which is what i would associate with low wis.
Also good Wis, would mean that your character is good at 'reading' other characters. Which would aid in negoitations. Such as knowing when someone is lying, being a keen judge of character, and being insightful regarding the motivations of others. All of which would aid in negotiations.
Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.
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Wisdom is key for negotiations. You can impress someone all you like with Charisma, but if you don't know when to push against an open door or back off from a firmly held position and look for other options, you are going to suck at true negotiations.
The high charisma person is not the Negotiator, he's the Charmer. He can get his way often, by fast talking and schmoozing, but if you want to actually negotiate things, Wisdom is much more important. The best negotiator will have high Wisdom and high Charisma. Intelligence is for those who define the goal for the negotiation, and is not as useful in the actual process of negotiation. The Salesman doesn't need to have the intelligence to invent the product, but must have the wisdom and charm to sell it, and negotiate a price that makes it worth making and buying. The Charismatic person can persuade you that it’s a great product, but it's the Wise Man who can negotiate the price so that you both walk away satisfied with the deal - That is negotiation.
But this is where the NWN engine falls down because it only reflects Charisma in Persuade skills and not other Stats.
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Negotiation. Negotiators.*
I'm sorry but it grated me to no end. :(
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Fix't.
I hated my English teacher at school for always pulling up on my spelling and humiliating me in front of the whole class! It's an area that I try with but frequently fail.
I'm sorry for causing you distress.
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Having been a SME resource in a number of very high level negotiations, I've had the chance to observe both good and bad ones. dripster has it right on, with one addition:
Anyway here is how I see it when it comes down to talking and those stats.
Charisma: Smoothe Talking or something to keep the Listener interested
Wisdom: When to push a point or not, How to probe them for more Info.
Intellect: General knowledge about what your talking baoutIntellect also helps with those times your experts are explaining ramifications to quickly understand.
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Alot of this intersting and varying. Though i think for the most part somthing important is being forgotten. It is not enough to roleplay your stats you must roleplay your skills too. It is possible to learn body language to study it. Read about social interaction. Read about what motivates people psychology books. Learning the the common sterotypes. All of this is in fact intelligence related book learning. It can in fact greatly improve your interactions in the situations you have read about though social interactions. I admit this sort of thing should not help you in situations outside your realm of knowledge in the slightest. I think it should not be ignored that social interaction can in fact be an area of study as well. These are repesented in a large part by skills Intelligence does not increase them directly but gives you points you can put in them. While sense motive is not represented in NWN it still is a skill none the less in the D&D universe so it can be raised with skill points you get from a high intelligence.
So what i am asking is the skills more important to social interactions or are the stats it seems the stats impact on the skills are already represented.