Spellcasters, spell selections and party approvals !
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Here's one question.
Disclaimer: this does not apply to all spellcasters but is more of a reflection on what I have been seeing more and more
Why do alot of casters now a days feel the need to inform their party of their entire spell selection and ask party members basically if it is alright for them to cast such and such spell?
To me personally, it just feels like an ooc heads up and could also just be due to a player not knowing what spells are useful yet due to inexperience with the class, etc.
So i'll finish with another question !
Do you prefer your party's spellcaster to keep some mystery about him and react to what you see him cast or do you prefer to know in advance what he/she is going to do?
Just to be clear here, I'm not talking about two wizards preparing their spellbooks accordingly together. I'm talking about spellcasters talking magic with folks that have no knowledge about it.
Discuss my minions, discuss.
edit (addition
I don't mind a spellcaster saying something like : "I have prepared a selection offensive/defensive spells" but it's when a spellcaster goes into detail that it gets a tad over the top in my opinion. -
Your question is confusing, and the format you wrote in is a bit difficult to read, paragraphs are easiest. That out of the way, it sounds like you're complaining about people roleplaying.
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Sorry about the confusion then. Let me rephrase in a more simple manner.
Do you enjoy when spellcasters reveal their entire spell selection to you when going out adventuring with them or do you prefer the mystery?
I'm not criticizing anyones roleplay here. I'm just trying to encourage spellcasters to be confident. A wizard will study magic all his/her life and then ask a fighter for advice on spell selection?
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I agree that it is a bit odd when you have the warriors dictating spell-selection for a wizard - in the case of naming spells at least, rather than "I want you to protect us all from any of their fireballs".
I personally avoid dictating spell selection unless the situation really requires some cohesion between the party, in which case I might say something like "Bring strength spells for the warriors and summons, lots of summons" if i'm asked.
Best solution is, of course, when you've got more than one wizard/caster in the party and they run off to the Traveller and figure out a spellcasting strategy for the party between them before returning.
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Good wizardry is in communication. I try to get all relevant details, and it's IC for my wizard to inform a party of the strategy they're using. I think this is a matter of IC portrayal, not OOC manner.
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I have to say, I haven't actually seen this happen.
I don't see it as having much point, but if people want to, go right ahead.
I only really play sorcerers, so anyone who hangs about enough tends to know what I can cast.
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I'm fine with any spells, as long as a fireball doesn't fry me down to 3 - 4 hp, as I am facing off an orcish army.
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I try to make sure the frontliners know what i have in mind. if they havent got stoneskin or something on them and its because we just started and i want to wait till they are fighting something more potent than zombies i'll say that rather than "shut up and hit things.".
If a party member asks for an enchantment i'll usually have it to cast if not i'll say so. As it goes though I dont think its an ooc heads up it just seems like good sense to discuss these things since lives depend on it and any adventurer that gets to a certain point will know that.
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I don't see any problem with wizards trying to be usefull if it's in character. It's no different then the rogue asking if he's wanted out front scouting, or in the back shooting. That being said, I think folks should play the way they want to play and let their relationships develope in game accordingly.
I once played a senile, old wizard gnome named Willhelm who cast inappropriete spells or no spells at all because he couldn't remember where the hell he was or what he was doing. For the most part people played along and had fun with the concept. I spent a lot of time laughing while playing him. Did Willhelm ever achieve mega levels? No. Did he advance any plots? Never. What he did do was keep me entertained for a while and that's what we're here for.
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I see nothing wrong with telling your wizards what spells you'd like to see, if you know these spells exist and have been cast on you before. I think it's fine for an experienced fighter to tell the wizard "If you have this power, can you protect my mind and make me very fast when I am surrounded? I'd also like that thing some of you robe-folks can do, that makes my skin tough as stone."
It's up to the wizard how to react. Personally I enjoy unique wizards that don't go around flaunting their exact spell selection, but when I play a frontlining character with average or more than average mental stats I will suggest certain spells if my IC (and, of course, OOC) experience dictates that they would be useful. Example: IC and OOC, we know that rocks hurt a lot when thrown at you, and if the character fought giants before he will know that. If he now also knows about the Stoneskin magic he has seen and experienced before, I think it is fine for him to suggest a wizard to provide it for him.
Addendum: We are in a high-magic world in Arabel. It makes a lot of sense to me that even average characters of certain experience know basic spells of a wizard, as they witness them almost daily on adventures: Fireball, Mind Protection, that sort of often-cast thing.
Edit: What a long-winded way of saying "I don't mind, but I definitely enjoy useful mysterious wizards a lot."
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But even non-casters generally do know many spell effects. They buy and use potions with such effects!
Seasoned party leaders in particular ought to have an informed opinion on what would be a good spell strategy in a given situation, at least if they are supposedly some kind of strategist. I give you Katelyn Obarstyr for example, who have studied leadership and warfare, and there are other current characters I could mention.
I'll admit, though, that my character Minda has occasionally asked the leader because she (or rather I) haven't done the quest before, and at other times as a form of advertisement: "Bring me along and I'll cast such and such spells on the fighters!"
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The way I play my wizard is simple. If you demand for a spell or want me to change my entire spell selection, sure as hell you won't get a single spell from me. I have my own spell selection that I rarely change (and only 1-2 spells if I do), and I am not really a buffer mage.
If you ask what spells I have or "can you memorize this and that", the answer you get is "maybe", or I will ignore you.
I cast stoneskin on who bleeds the most to protect him. Not necessary on the "highest level" fighter. Haste on someone who found himself surrounded and need the speed and extra protection to kill/retreat.
I won't raise a finger if the group can defeat the enemies with ease, the spell I would have wasted here can save life a moment later.
It is very very rare that I've exhausted all my spells by the end of the quest. And noone ever complained so far. (on the contrary, I got a lot ot tells telling me that they approve the way I play my mage).
So to answer your question, I definelty vote for mystery.
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The way I play my wizard is simple. If you demand for a spell or want me to change my entire spell selection, sure as hell you won't get a single spell from me. I have my own spell selection that I rarely change (and only 1-2 spells if I do), and I am not really a buffer mage.
If you ask what spells I have or "can you memorize this and that", the answer you get is "maybe", or I will ignore you.
I cast stoneskin on who bleeds the most to protect him. Not necessary on the "highest level" fighter. Haste on someone who found himself surrounded and need the speed and extra protection to kill/retreat.
I won't raise a finger if the group can defeat the enemies with ease, the spell I would have wasted here can save life a moment later.
It is very very rare that I've exhausted all my spells by the end of the quest. And noone ever complained so far. (on the contrary, I got a lot ot tells telling me that they approve the way I play my mage).
So to answer your question, I definelty vote for mystery.
Seconded.
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I disagree completely as a player (but acknowledge the IC RP) of smirnoff's unwillingness to comply to requests for spells, or break from a basic spell formula - you may as well play a sorcerer if you use the same spells all the time.
However, I agree very much with the notion of not using spells unless necessary. It makes more sense to hold onto spells for as long as is possible on a quest (especially a DM quest), rather than blowing them all quickly. Never know what will happen. Was it worth it using that stoneskin to fight CR 2 skeletons? Guess what, here's an army of stone giants.
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As I have no idea what I will face on a quest, I have a spell selection that is useful in every situation. Of course, if I know that we will fight undead, I won't prepare negative energy spells. Or I won't cast flame weapon on your blade before I know what type of monster will attack us (so I can change the element type to be actually useful).
I am willing (and I do so) to change my spell selection if I know the danger ahead.
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I never change my spell selection, simply because I don't want to fall into the rut of tweaking for each quest or whatever. It also makes resting painless.
As for the point of this thread, I have no problem with people discussing spell selection, and will often ask the mages to use some strategy in how they cast if there is more then one in my party.
The thing that turns me off a bit from your post is it sounds like you are telling people how to play the game, without taking into account players experience roleplaying. I think thats a phase that every player goes through on CoA, but after time you come to the realization that the best way to get people on the same page when it comes to this stuff is to lead by example, and be patient.
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Good wizardry is in communication. I try to get all relevant details, and it's IC for my wizard to inform a party of the strategy they're using. I think this is a matter of IC portrayal, not OOC manner.
Best solution is, of course, when you've got more than one wizard/caster in the party and they run off to the Traveller and figure out a spellcasting strategy for the party between them before returning.
Above are two different approaches, and if both are done IC, what is there to complain about?
Good Wizardy in my book is all about the mystery and arrogance (or absentmindedness!) in the Forgotten Realms, not about OOC effectiveness.
Smirnoff's approach works for me. It shows IC experience and arrogance appropriate to a character who is much more intelligent than the average fighter. If a warrior leader with Int 10 is dictating to a Wizard of int 16 how to do his job, the wizard should be telling the warrior to Sod Off! The trouble with that statement is that it is again telling folks how they should play their character!
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I took the OP as a disagreement of People with 0 spellcraft talking to a wizard as if they cast spells themselves, or Spellcasters trying to discuss spell strategy with that same 0 spellcraft person. Perhaps I misread something.
To take it further, I don't care how many potions of armor someone drinks, they still have no clue how the magic works, sure request a spell, but they shouldn't act like they have an innate understanding of how the magic works unless they have ranks in spellcraft. They only know "I drink this, I am harder to hit." They don't know it is a spell called "Mage Armor" they know it is a potion called "Potion of Armor".
Are we not supposed to RP our skills and stats as they are on the character sheet and not as the player knows them?
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You what? You want to know which spells I can cast? You want to tell -me- a wizard, who delve in mind devouring pools of knowledge how to use the Art?
You want to teach me when I should call for celestial aid? You want to tell me when it is proper to shield your mind? Do you think I am unable to protect your weak miserable life? laughs
Do I tell you when to swing your blade? How high to raise your shield? When to use your hammer?
Be sure warrior, that you will receive the aid of the Art whenever -I- will see it proper and our enemies will receive the wrath of the Weave when -I- will decide.
Of course you can suggest the proper course of action before the battle ensues, after all you are the master tactician. And be sure to know the difference between a proper suggestion and an order.
Now let's proceed, tinhead, otherwise I'll roast you in your armor! taps his staff on the back of the warrior's helmet
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I have to agree with the distatse for people who tell the caster what spells to cast. Especially if they are a priest.
Guess what. you -are- getting Bulls strength,flameweapon, and I will cast Hammer of the Gods, not Stoneskin Because I am showing the might of my god.
or maybe I'm a sadist and I'd rather cast combusts at enemies than buffs on you.
