In Response to Seth's Reason for Leaving:
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I feel his reaction was over the top and would like to see him return.
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Well, I always found some of these PG13 rules rather .. amusing. Lets face it, you can backstab, poison, strangle, burn alive, beat someone to a bloody pulp but god beware you see a nipple. So can basically kill someone in any way you can imagine but you are not allowed to show how someone is made from scratch ;-) If I could choose, I would rather want my kids to know how children are made and how to protect one self rather than knowing 14,000 §$"§$"!!!%& ways how to kill someone.
Having said that, some topics should be handled very carefully on a public server like CoA. People could have a history, know of someone, etc. but since nobody can know about such other than the person affected, we should all have the majurity to raise the topic to the respective DM asap in case it sits too deep to cancel out as this is a role playing game.
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This server is honestly more like PG-17…I haven't seen anything here worthy of a 13 year old's eyes and mind other than the Shira's Dog plot line.
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I was part of the original plot.
It seemed reasonable.
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Because killing someone in a violent matter is ok for young children to watch, just how society is.
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I work at a domestic violence shelter. Any abuse - physical, psychological, or sexual - has the potential to be traumatic to individuals who experienced or were exposed to the abuse. Of course, different individuals who experienced or were exposed to the abuse will have different triggers. Different individuals will also respond to those triggers in different ways. For some, the implication of abuse - even if there is no depiction of abuse - has the potential to be a trigger for an emotional response. There is, of course, no right or wrong way to respond to trauma, so there is nothing wrong with an emotional response to such a trigger.
There is also nothing wrong with the intentions of the DM. As much as we may complain about the server, or the DMs, or other players, all of our complaints come from our love of the stories we create. Nothing comes from an intent to hurt someone. Likewise, the DMs would never intend to hurt someone with the stories they create. My only suggestion to anyone - DM or player - is to not use traumatic themes like this for the sake of using traumatic themes; for the sake of being gritty. Grit, after all, is no substitute for substance. Traumatic themes like this should be used only if they substantiate the story somehow. Even then, we have to understand and respect other players, but, in my experience, the DMs are nothing if not understanding and respectful of players.
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i am not comfortable with story lines like that and in game will avoid them, instead preferring to pretending they are not happening
one incident that very nearly made me quit happened a few years ago where a dm dangled in front of a group us beyond a locked door a bunch of scared children destined for feeding bloodstones, i did not appreciate that event and dislike the powerlessness that i was forced to feel, we were not able to save them, i was disgusted by that storyline and i never tried to follow up on it either preferring to pretend that it never happened, i never complained about that event till now, instead simply choosing to block it out of my mind (this happened when central arabel was still called that and not the guilded area, i did not complain to the dm at the time, but it had been my experience for the most part my queries and concerns would be ignored,"be a good little girl, and do not complain or tell anyone")
i come here for fantasy and to escape certain realities, not to have it forced upon me (for the most part the server has provided me a escape, in instances where it does not..i simply do the equivalent of sticking my fingers in my ears and going lalalalalala..and run away)
(*have been a victim of abuse)
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Thank you for sharing that, Darlene.
As someone who has witnessed abuse and acted as a medium for others to channel their grief and pain, I can safely say that even a mild reference to such real-life horrors is enough to act as a trigger for certain individuals. That being said, however, Arabel's DMs have done a good job at maintaining a level of decency and moderation when skirting near these taboo topics.
Consequently, I will say that I'm proud of the playerbase thus far. This is one of the very few instances I've heard of a player leaving because of graphic/emotionally charged content in quite a while, and that says volumes about how we can create and tell stories without having to dive into these specific violent topics.
I would also like to stress the difference between what I call "battle violence" and "life violence." I utilize the former all the time with emotes such as, "Neolithic tears his axe across in a brutal horizontal blow, cleaving the goblin in twain." The latter is exceptionally difficult to roleplay without diving headlong into a concept that, typically, at least one person within earshot has either experienced or heard of someone experiencing.
I think a general rule of thumb here is twofold:
**Check the list Moloch posted, and if it's not on the list but you're not sure if it will offend someone, don't do it.Just my two cents, and wanted to comment on a more positive note.**
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Ok, I have to say something before political correctness becames the death of this community. Personally, I think tragic happenings that may reflect real life from time to time make for a better story. Thats what this game is all about, a better story. I can't be alone in this, or games like Grand Theft Auto would not be top sellers. I'm not trying to be insensative towards peoples real life experiences, and I totally understand if there is something you don't want to be involved in. Personally, I don't like roleplaying any aspect of torture, but when I was faced with just that ig as a character captured I did what I thought was a simple fix-I switched my screen over to Irc and let them have at it. I'm not saying thats what the solution here is, but perhaps something as simple as a warning prior to a dm event by the dm saying "there may be some graphic and potentially disturbing images involved and if you might be offended by something pm me" in my opinion is a much better fix then having a list of things we can't invovle ig.
Anyways, thats my two cents. I really did try to avoid this thread.
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I agree with LoF on this.
Let us be adults about this one. If I end up on a DM event where I find the story disturbing, i would politely say so and log out if the rest are fine with the story.
That said I am glad for the guidlines (see Moloch' s qoute). I prefer a server where certain aspects are only implied and not graphically played out.
As for the example the thread is about I personally find that well on the right side of the line of what is acceptable.
There must IMHO be possible to differ between fiction and reality. War in fiction can be glorious and honourable. In reality that is never the case. Alcoholism in fiction can be a nice flavour for a character, never so in real life. An evil master villain that is a Tyrant can be the favorite character of a film but any real life equivelent is only horrible.
So do not let us "rein in" our DMs our stories risk becoming bleak, but rather just give a heads up at the event if you find anything disturbing and if opinions differ, leave the event.
My 2
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If I end up on a DM event where I find the story disturbing, i would politely say so
The goal of us DMs is to tell a story our players can enjoy. That is the biggest reward for us. It would be pointless to force onto our players situations that hurt their feelings or their sensibility. I can appreciate it can be tough to speak of certain topics, expecially if they open old (or fresh) wounds, but there is no need to go into details. If you find uncomfortable with anything a DM is doing, just say so. It is our most important goal to make you feel at home here.
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The difference between a game like GTA, and CoA, unfortunately, is that people are unlikely to play GTA if it includes subject matter that they know might trigger some emotional scarring. They know, before hand, that it might include such triggers, so they avoid it.
People playing CoA have no reason to expect such a thing, and indeed may have played here for years, hell we are getting close to a decade now, and not only would it destroy a much loved source of entertainment, it would be exceptionally jarring to suddenly come across such a thing in a place that they had, up until now, felt was safe.
I am in no way a psychologist, and I am lucky in that I do not have such scars myself, but I know people who do, and I can imagine it would be extremely upsetting to stumble upon reminders of these things somewhere they go (and have gone for years) to escape it.
Disclaimer: I have never encountered such things on CoA, and I am quite content and happy to say that the DM team do a great job keeping such things away from our server. I am just saying this to point out the difference between CoA, and films/games people have prior knowledge of the content of.
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Maybe I'm reflecting my bias a bit more than I should, but in my years I have been subjected to, and had to deal with mostly emotional abuse - I also had four younger siblings, the youngest of which developed a deathly fear of asking for help with things, so he even started slipping in school (he's doing great now, though :D)
I can understand the impact and the anguish that such events have on someone; I also know the impact they had on me. I will never pursue any plot or storyline that focuses on abuse; nor will I ever play out a scene involving it. However, being someone who has had this as a background, and knows that a lot of my personality and my choices in life have been shaped by how I reacted to my childhood, I find it to be a perfectly acceptable detail to establish someone's character or, in this case, bring sense to a setting. This child was not crying, he was not devastated; he escaped to a world that was safe for him and showed the logic and good graces to get away from what was going on. People saw "Oh, dad's drunk, poor kid" I saw "That kid's sharp, and is here smiling and coloring"
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As I former DM, my old approach was to always take the Hitchcock approach to anything involving children. IE: No harm comes to them that you see on screen.
The most I'd ever do was have one disappear. I think I had Bhaliir rumored to have eaten a child too once though.
That said, the plot that started all this was an idea I bounced off a fellow DM. I got the idea from watching a CBS Family show with my daughter about a young child who used art to escape the feelings caused by his alcoholic father.
I suspect, if it was a CBS Family show, aimed at 13 and 14 year old girls, then it was a suitable idea for CoA. Its unfortunate someone got so upset, but as always, I'd tell people that if you are upset–please log out, then come talk to your DMs or fellow players, and see what can be done to work things out.
Overall, I think this is a community that really cares about its members. Otherwise, we would never have lasted all these years.
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I should also point out, one of the things that really helped me to stay in Arabel was the PG13 list Moloch posted, as well as some other posts he put up regarding expected behavior
i prefer the Hitchcock approach
i do not think the art plot was that bad (i had no part in it and only have read about it)
the bloodstone incident i mentioned that happened earlier i found offensive, and now i will speak up should i see anything ever of that nature ever again (with this discussion i am positive it will never happen, another thing that has bolstered my fragile and shattered confidence) -
I really didn't want to get involved with this thread, but something Leaders and Followers stated just made me nod my head a little too hard not to say something.
No single DM here wants to offend anyone on this server, be it a brand new player, someone who's just getting their feet wet, a veteran player, or another DM. That being said, there is a very vast and horrid disease traversing the world and its moniker is "Political Correctness." When I joined this server nine years ago, there was a very popular quest that people ran daily. It was difficult, it had very good challenges, but it was fun, it brought big groups together, and as far as my eyes can read back through our archives we never once had a complaint. The quest was about Lord Rolo Fezznick's kidnapped son, Lamir Fezznick. He would get kidnapped over and over and over again by bandits trying to get ransom money from Lord Fezznick. The premise was that Lord Fezznick was so disastrously busy with his nobility and ruler-ship, that he had no time for his poor, poor little son, Lamir, who had just lost his mother due to some illness (or at least, something that got her dead). Therefore he was a brat, an awful brat at that, and it was up to the adventuring populous to go and rescue him every 8 hours OR reset (how the quest timer worked back then).
Lamir, was he abused? Well, it depends, if you would determine neglect as abuse then yes, he was abused. No one ever said that Rolo Fezznick "beat" his child, no one ever said Rolo Fezznick "mentally abused" the child. The "abuse" (whatever form you wanted to take from it) was simply implied.
So where does this event really differ from Lord Fezznick's most popular quest to rescue Lamir? Is it the alcohol abuse? Does someone consuming alcohol mean they'll immediately physically abuse someone? Because that's something I myself find offensive. As someone who has come from a long, long line of alcoholics, and someone who is admittedly probably drinking a little too much to be healthy from time to time, I have never once abused (any form) anyone or been abused (any form) by anyone in my family. And since the DM's never 100% (or even anything over 50% for that matter) specified if this child was abused, why is there such an out-lash? That's what I don't get. If something other than "his paintings got ripped up and he escaped his drunk father" was interpreted here, I'd like to know how and why. If that was -it-, the only thing that was wrong, I'd like to know how it went from that to this can of worms of child-abuse.
You know, it's only a matter of time before someone comes along after this and says "I don't like women being abducted, because my (insert female relationship here) was abducted. Don't let bandits do that." Then from there, it goes to demons. "Well demons are a man-made fabrication and therefore it's really still a man doing the abduction." From there we can further assume that, should "politically correct" continue to reign, then no longer will there be an Arabel where adventure is had. You won't be able to save a damsel in distress, you won't be able to dethrone an evil ruler, you won't even be able to steal a loaf of bread from a bakery, or eat a chicken leg from Sander's stall.
All of this is because, no matter what you do, how you do it, or how careful you are, you will somehow inadvertently offend someone in the process. This was never even a problem 10 or 15 years ago, because people back then could take something like "Oh, I didn't mean it that way, I'm sorry if I upset you but I didn't mean that." If you use that phrase now, it for some reason infuriates said "victims" even more! Instead, the phrase has been replaced with people who will continue to cry victim and plague, to cry they've been wronged and that they deserve justification until some real CHANGE is made. This is not how story telling, music, video games, movies, or any other concept of aural, visual, and sensual media (I don't mean the naughty kind) works. Until people, or at least small niches as a whole, can understand the concept of "We only offended 0.9% of our group, and we didn't mean you any harm, can you forgive us?" then I fear the entire world of art as a whole will eventually crumble. Maybe not now, maybe not this decade, but easily within the century.
I'm sorry if this offended anyone, again, we were painting a story, and a picture, and not all stories and pictures are happy. That does not mean, however, they are not worth enjoying and it most certainly doesn't mean that we are horrible, awful people for daring to attempt to explain the dark corners of humanity. In a sense, the expression of the most unspeakable things in any art form is a way of learning to cope with it. Without that, some of our greatest artists of all time would never have made it.
For all anyone knows, whoever crafted this plot in the first place was simply expressing their own childhood and hoping to somehow shape it into a positive form of entertainment. I wonder if this will sink in for anyone. Is it assumed that we, the DM Team, cannot pull from our own pasts?
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Brilliant post.
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DMs have the right to play out any story they want as long as the content of the story does not violate server policy. Players also have the right to ask for accomodations if the content of the story makes them feel uncomfortable. The DMs can choose to accomodate or not accomodate the players who feel uncomfortable. If the DMs choose not to accomodate the players, the players have the right to decline to play. No one, however, has the right to ask the players to become comfortable with the content. If I were a DM, I would want to accomodate players who feel uncomfortable so no player has to decline to play, but that is me.
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See Dr. Penguin's post for appropriate rebuttal. It's probably in there.
I am sick of this horrid political correctness. I was speaking to my grandmother about it today. There was never that sort of ridiculous censorship when she grew up. "You just got on with it" is what she said.