Multiclass v Pureclass Theme Discussion



  • I wanted to try to get my point about why making "pure-class" only themes doesn't really make sense. The way I think it should be done is like this:

    Say there is a fighter theme that gives a cool perk. Have the perk given at fighter level 6. Therefore, it takes a serious investment and RP-wise you definitely have the focus in being a warrior that whatever the theme is needs. It shouldn't make a difference, however, whether the character is Fighter 6 or Fighter 6/Rogue 1/Bard 1.

    @The:

    You go straight class because you want the tasty treats that come with higher level class abilities. If you multiclass you need to ask yourself "Will it make sense for my character to take this level, do I really need it?".

    This is fair. I don't see why, however, multiclassing should disqualify people from new awesome content.



  • IMO it is a toss up.

    You either get the expanded abilities and perks that come from Multi-classing. Or you get the new shiny stuff put in to reward single class characters.

    A single class 6th level Paladin is not as powerful as someone who is 2levels paladin, Two levels rogue, two levels ranger.



  • I think it should be "restructured" not actually pure class. This problem with v3 DnD is that everything is so front loaded it makes the most sense to take 3 levels of everything:

    I.e. 1st level fighter gets all weapons and armors except exotic and bonus feat
    1st level rangers gets tracking, favored enemy, dual wield
    1st level rogue gets tons of skill points and access to almost all skills
    1st level barbarian gets fast movement (2nd for rage?)

    You can take just one level to get the best perks of most classes. 3 levels of something gets you the second set of cool perks in many classes.

    What should happen is just one perk at lvl 1, a decent perk at 3, several decent ones at 5, great ones at 7th lvl and ubercool at 9 or 10. That way even multi classes can get cool stuff for multi classing, but the thinner you spread yourself the less uber feats you get. Things could also scale like rogue sneak damage does- every 2 levels a perk gets considerably better.

    This may be taken care of by adding some high level feat bonuses down a few levels.



  • I actually agree somewhat with Nikko. But I feel that this is also implemented to a large extent already.

    Rogues: get vastly much more awesome by levels due to sneaks and the lv 10 feat.
    Fighters: Get loads and loads of feats that keep coming and gives you many many abilities. Pure-classes get more AC and more willsaves as well.
    Barbarians: Longer rage, more rage per day. Pure-class gets more DR, more damage as well.
    Rangers: Better pets, better tracking, more favored enemy bonuses and also some spells. Plus a few pure-class bonuses.
    All spellcasters (including bards): higher spell levels and more slots (what else can you ask for?!)
    Paladin: More smite damage, better Celestial squire, more spells, better turn undead. (also for clerics)
    Bards: More and better bard songs (its their purpose!).
    Druids: More and better wildshapes, better pets.

    If you look at these facts then there really is no argument that going deep into a single class, as opposed to spreading thinly over many is a good thing. You will have some skills in many aspects, but you will suck at all of them (excluding stealth and traps/locks that are skilldump-viable).

    Multiclassing doesn't deny you any of these things (besides the few pure-class bonuses), but it makes them much harder to reach due to our level range. Personally I prefer it that way.



  • I get what the fireminded means.

    What he means is that, you don't technicaly forget everything you learned as a fighter once you multiclassed. If you needed at-least 6 levels in fighter to be able to properly use something, you don't suddenly exactly forget everything you learned as soon as you took a rogue level.

    That complicated fighter only fullplate with the bells and whistles, you knew how to put it on when you where a level 6 fighter, does it make sense that you magicaly forgot how to use it as soon as you learned a few arcane spells as fighter 6/wizard 1?

    Its not a mechanics argument, its an rp one.

    But honestly, I like it the way it is right now and have no issue with turning a blind eye to those little things since it promotes some fairly decent mechanical balance.



  • Sorry- was caught in the v5 discussions and how things could be fixed for "next time".

    I always assumed the "pure class" items - like the fighter book and gems were purchased on the assumption that the book only worked if you were constantly studying it, learning more, honing your skill and the discipline gems were attuned to some sort of rigorous training and mental preparation. Basically that the perks you got as a pure fighter were not because you learned them, but that you constantly meditated and studied the warrior way. If you took time away from that, you lost focus and thus the perk.

    A fighter 6/1 wizard can still fight fine, but he's given up his martial focus to study spells during his off time and loses his will increases.

    I guess it's another problem with a system where you don't actually "learn" anything - you just one day wake up and can do a bunch new stuff.



  • Pure class bonuses are boring because they are purely mechanical and tasteless bonuses. Pure fighter? Oh here, have +1 Will and +1 AC(For a class that already has the highest AC of all). Boring… >.>

    I'd much rather see selectable "backgrounds" for your highest class level at level 5.



  • Pure class bonuses are boring because they are purely mechanical and tasteless bonuses. Pure fighter? Oh here, have +1 Will and +1 AC(For a class that already has the highest AC of all). Boring… >.>

    Point of fact the highest ac of all was rogue fighters…best fighting builds were rogue/fighter/barbs...
    The fighter bonus on extra AC was to let them compete with multiclasses as they didn't get tumble as a class skill.

    But that said i would like prc's to be easyer to get i detest writing apps mostly because i suck at it,so a system where you can ask for such in game then get a quest or somthing would be better ..for me anyhow.



  • @TheJaggedSoul:

    Pure class bonuses are boring because they are purely mechanical and tasteless bonuses. Pure fighter? Oh here, have +1 Will and +1 AC(For a class that already has the highest AC of all). Boring… >.>

    I'd much rather see selectable "backgrounds" for your highest class level at level 5.

    And turn CoA into a carbon copy of EfU? I'd rather not see that, myself.



  • @Ela:

    @TheJaggedSoul:

    Pure class bonuses are boring because they are purely mechanical and tasteless bonuses. Pure fighter? Oh here, have +1 Will and +1 AC(For a class that already has the highest AC of all). Boring… >.>

    I'd much rather see selectable "backgrounds" for your highest class level at level 5.

    And turn CoA into a carbon copy of EfU? I'd rather not see that, myself.

    Adding specializations at certain levels wouldn't make CoA a carbon copy of Efu. It would just be implementing a good idea that adds more variety and rp options to what players can play. I really don't see where this mindset of 'don't do things that would actually add variety' to the game comes from. Variety is good - it gives players more options. More options lead to better RP/gameplay



  • Variety is good, but it's better when it's not copy-pasted from elsewhere, in my opinion. "Background" is something that's supposed to add flavor to the RP and I think there are plenty of skills and feats that can be taken to represent an actual background.

    My proposition is to keep and add to the current specialisation system. Add more types of specialisation to different classes and to keep them from being pure-class only, simply divide the perks they give to advance with levels in that particular class.



  • @Ela:

    My proposition is to keep and add to the current specialisation system. Add more types of specialisation to different classes and to keep them from being pure-class only, simply divide the perks they give to advance with levels in that particular class.

    This sounds like a reasonable compromise to me as a system like this would allow variety without making people feel they are losing something in the process.



  • And add a few perks that only open up if you do muliticlass to a certien dergree as well perhaps?

    For example a "spellsword" perk that gives you +1 magic damage with a weapon if you have second level spell and weapeon spec with it.



  • I dislike the pure class only items and bonus' with a passion.

    Class is representative of a skillset, as characters grow they develop in new and unexpected ways. I SHOULD NOT be punished for taking a class that represents a new path for my char.

    Yes, Multiclassing can lead to some powerful combos, but then again it can also lead to some weakened chars. Pureclass chars even without the bonus' can be powerful as well depending on builds and stats.

    Frankly, pureclass bonus' lead to only two things. Inflexible characters who refuse to step from their archetypal build and outlook because it will weaken them too much. And people who feel almost guilty for building a char with RP in mind rather than mechanics.



  • Class is representative of a skillset, as characters grow they develop in new and unexpected ways. I SHOULD NOT be punished for taking a class that represents a new path for my char.

    Yes, Multiclassing can lead to some powerful combos, but then again it can also lead to some weakened chars. Pureclass chars even without the bonus' can be powerful as well depending on builds and stats.

    Frankly, pureclass bonus' lead to only two things. Inflexible characters who refuse to step from their archetypal build and outlook because it will weaken them too much. And people who feel almost guilty for building a char with RP in mind rather than mechanics.

    Most sway to the other side of the line. Not everyone wants to make that wizard/sorc/bard!



  • So dont?



  • Also just because you build for RP doesnt mean you need to have a sucky build. The pure class system in place is not to punish multi-classes but to encourage people to stick to thier trade and make things fairer on the battlefield.



  • Class is representative of a skillset, as characters grow they develop in new and unexpected ways.

    I do agree with this.
    But the fighter only healing gem was created because the main complaint was wands don't give aoo's and potions do.
    So now if you want to take a rogue level and use wands you can if you don't you get cheaper healing that dosent cause aoo.
    The rest of the fighter only and barb only gear im not a fan of it's nice to have it as monks and rogues have always had there own gear but it should all be usable with UMD IMO.(except the healing stone)

    I SHOULD NOT be punished for taking a class that represents a new path for my char.

    I agree but i do not think you should keep the pure class bonuses,item use except the disc gem yes everything else no.



  • I agree with Nikko, people cross-class because of "top heavy" classes like fighters giving so many free feats. The solution is not pure class bonuses but later level bonuses for a class and more encouragement to stay pure classed that is balanced with the benefits of going multiclass.

    This is very difficult to do though. Say we put something great for someone with 10 fighter levels, there is nothing to stop people then going fighter 10/ bard 1 for 10 spellcraft, arcane wands/scrolls, bard song, etc. Maybe we need to nerf low levels of a class too.



  • @Deadlock:

    Say we put something great for someone with 10 fighter levels, there is nothing to stop people then going fighter 10/ bard 1 for 10 spellcraft, arcane wands/scrolls, bard song, etc. Maybe we need to nerf low levels of a class too.

    Then they'd be giving up 1 BAB and sacrificing an entire attack per round for that stuff. They'd get 1 use of bard song per day…Why shouldn't that be their choice?

    @Deadlock:

    The solution is not pure class bonuses but later level bonuses for a class and more encouragement to stay pure classed that is balanced with the benefits of going multiclass.

    This.


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