CB's unpopular series of critical balance changes. Part 3: Loot TYPE and scaling



  • Here's part 3. Now, something we're pretty keen on talking about is balance. Balance doesn't really exist but that doesn't mean we shouldn't TRY to maintain it in some fashion, especially when, like in this case, it doesn't require any past editing and only this to be taken into consideration in the future. This is especially relevant to DM loot but also quest loot on a few quests.

    Now, with the increased level range we have to take scaling into consideration. What i mean by that is that certain things increase with levels and certain things do not. Some things that do not are Armor Class and another thing that does not (and the most important one) is saving throw difficulty of casters.

    This is important because with max HP and much higher levels, this takes away a lot from certain types of viable casters. (along with huge NPC HP)

    My problem with loot is the over abundance of saves loot going on. This again, takes a LOT away from a lot of potential caster builds, and takes away from PVP fun because people will be sticking to 1 shot cheese mechanics more frequently.

    Saves gear with the icnreased levels range should, in my opinion, be restricted to DM loot only. +1 universal saves, +2 universal saves and stuff like +3 saves items, should not be found at all without a DM spawning them.

    Saves and max HP are a huge drag for a lot of potential caster builds. The saves loot should be a lot more rare.



  • Higher levels also means higher level spells with way worse mechanics though, doesn't it? Like instant death spells as opposed to fireballs. And higher circle spells also have a higher base DC, no?



  • The spell level difference in miniscule really.



  • High saves also make spells from items useless, as they go with the lowest save possible, as far as I know.



  • Yes, but given full casters get a higher circle every two levels, which is the same rate that a full save progresses at, shouldn't it be equal? And then we account for specialization feats versus saves gear?



  • My point is saves gear is too readily available and with the already rising saves people get at the level range, they increase much more that way than spell DCs do, especially combined with max HP



  • These shouldn't quite be compared.
    Specialization should give you an edge in a few spells. In your line of reasoning, it is a must to keep up.
    Spell save DCs only rise for the highest circle you can cast at the moment, and not for your old spells. Not sure how you could compare that to saves.



  • Specializing more loot with things like... Vs. Disease, Neg E, Death, Mind-Affecting, Poison, etc. and minimizing any "Fort, Ref, Will, Uni" other than faction / dm loot can go a long way for this, I think.

    Still though, casters aren't negatively impacted by this.

    If anything, wizard's on CoA are stronger than they've ever been.



  • @Bowser said in CB's unpopular series of critical balance changes. Part 3: Loot TYPE and scaling:

    Specializing more loot with things like... Vs. Disease, Neg E, Death, Mind-Affecting, Poison, etc. and minimizing any "Fort, Ref, Will, Uni" other than faction / dm loot can go a long way for this, I think.

    Still though, casters aren't negatively impacted by this.

    If anything, wizard's on CoA are stronger than they've ever been.

    They are, and always will be. The point is that the versatility viable for them is absolutely miniscule though.

    I had, with minimal buffs, on Vaaeldra, vs spells:

    Fort: 24
    Reflex: 14 (17 with my boots)
    Will: 23
    +2 vs everything if the caster was evil. She had no saves feats and subrace played no part in the saves aside from giving me +1 fort. It was all saves gear. This is at level 14.



  • Of course the Subrace played a part.

    You were able to boost other stats due to having a score of +14 overall attribute bonus points.

    I check character sheets regularly, no one is even close to that level of saving throws in one column unbuffed, let alone three.



  • @Bowser said in CB's unpopular series of critical balance changes. Part 3: Loot TYPE and scaling:

    Of course the Subrace played a part.

    You were able to boost other stats due to having a score of +14 overall attribute bonus points.

    I check character sheets regularly, no one is even close to that level of saving throws in one column unbuffed, let alone three.

    How did the subrace play a part? I had 10 dex, 16 con and 18 wis at that level. The subrace gives me +2 con, otherwise it's built exactly like a "generic" cleric would be. Subrace didn't factor into it at all, the saves gear did. And i said it was with standard buffs. (or did i say minimal, doesn't matter, with a few routine buffs up)

    Edit: After relevelling i had 12 dex, my bad



  • IMO We should just eliminate any Fort, Will, Ref, Uni save of above 1, unless it's specifically just a +2 of that (excluding uni) and no other item properties.

    These /do/ stack, so when we load them up on DM loot, it makes a HUGE difference.

    With socket loot I was able to get +7/5/7 (Fort/ref/will) which is absurdly high and shouldn't really be able to be replicated at current loot levels.

    There are a few loot items I can think of, but I think this is more a case of what we may need to watch when making DM loot.

    14th level cleric base throws are 9/4/9, add in +1 ref +3 fort +4 will for base stats (dex,end,wis)

    12/5/13.
    24/17/23

    That means your loot (Take 2 off your original totals for cat, endurance, owl) was giving you a bonus of 10/10/8!

    That is absurdly high and clearly we need to ensure those sort of loot levels aren't achieved.



  • My saves at the moment are 7/9/13. Obviously these are somewhat buff-dependent, and I have at least 15 SC. But I know any competent mage is pretty much guaranteed to pass those saves if they throw a spell at me. People have DC30 spells.



  • Good to learn again I suck.
    How is it even possible to get a save DC of 30?!



  • On my recent PC, I had DC 31 with my Seventh circle spells.

    GSF for +4 to the spell school, Empowered Fox's Cunning for +7-8 would get me to 30 int.

    Ioun stone means I could reach DC 32.

    My Flesh to stone spells were regularly DC 30.