Some balance suggestions for the new level range



  • Monks:
    -Cap their speed limit, somewhere in the range of hasted lycans. That's fast as hell but not as ridiculous as it's going to be when you see high level monks without this cap.
    -Spell resistance. Monks get high spell resistance at lvl 11. I suggest instead of giving them 11 +level then, give them SR 5 +level immediately at level 1 to make up for the loss. It's still good, but not quite so ridiculous.

    Cleric:
    -Make clerics levels above 10 require an app Clerics need such absurd amount of balancing that it is not unreasonable that if someone wants to take more than 10 cleric levels needs to be established enough to send in an app to do so.

    ..... more to come......



  • For clerics I think maybe if they get spell failure for circles above 5th. And you need to get your gods approval to get access to higher circles.
    Meaning you can level all you want app or no app. But those higher circle spells require EiG and representing your faith.

    It's the silence, gods aren't going to give people a high allowance unless they did their chores 😛



  • I think the Silence is over. Not sure. But I know all spells past a certain circle had increasing chances of failure during the Silence.

    Re:monks. It's currently a Lv12 feat that gives 10+Monk level. It's the last big feat monks get in our level range, and requires that you pure class, losing out on some ab (vs ranger or fighter) or damage (vs rogue). I don't think it should be a Lv1 feat, which makes the 1 monk dip even tastier. Perhaps Lv8 if you cull it to 5+level. Channelki doesn't function properly atm, so I can't tell how good 5+level SR is.


  • Arabel City Militia

    @chips said in Some balance suggestions for the new level range:

    For clerics I think maybe if they get spell failure for circles above 5th. And you need to get your gods approval to get access to higher circles.
    Meaning you can level all you want app or no app. But those higher circle spells require EiG and representing your faith.

    It's the silence, gods aren't going to give people a high allowance unless they did their chores 😛

    Personally, I'd prefer no app.

    I think any debuffs should be measured by adding flavor. At 6th circle a Gruumsh or Tempus cleric might not be able to cast heal.



  • @chips The last thing the DMs want is to create more paperwork. Remember the brief time monks were advised to send in an app detailing the code they were following?

    We also have a lot of great RPers on this server who simply suck at apps. Why should their stories be impeded by an OOC issue?


  • DMs

    Yeah, I am not a fan of people apping to be certain levels



  • @puffy said in Some balance suggestions for the new level range:

    Yeah, I am not a fan of people apping to be certain levels

    Thank goodness. Divine classes should still follow the dogma or they get spell failure, not at certain levels, but all the time.


  • Arabel City Militia

    Ideally, you'd want spells to match the domains of the gods a bit better. It is difficult to know how difficult it is though, considering a lot of the kits don't work, you'd need a lot of kits for cleric (for each domain).

    The idea would be your spell list would be much more concentrated on your domain selection at the start. So War-like dieties grant offensive spells (Hammer of Gods, etc). Healing, etc grant Heal, etc. Strength maybe stoneskin.

    The idea would be to make domains much more relevant, and the different Gods provide flavour for each PC in terms of the spells they can cast.



  • @joekickass that would probably take quite a bit of scripting. But doesn't seem like too bad an idea tbh. Remove all cleric spells above a certain circle from the class, add a load of granted spells to each domain. Would make clerics less monstrous while preserving a lot of flavour.

    Could potentially throw in a few extra spells that wouldn't be available to a baseline cleric like domains currently do for lower levels too


  • Arabel City Militia

    @SteveLichman - Suppose it is whether the current custom domains can take away spells as easy as they add them. We do have custom domains (I think).



  • @joekickass Adding spells to a domain is easy if you know what you're doing. But removing base spells from a class is likely trickier


  • DMs

    @stevelichman said in Some balance suggestions for the new level range:

    @joekickass Adding spells to a domain is easy if you know what you're doing. But removing base spells from a class is likely trickier

    Correct.

    There's currently some old NWNx functions that don't seem to be working or something, which is why kits/spell reagents etc aren't working.

    If all that worked, it would be possible to make every god have specific spell sets and all sorts, but it would be a pretty massive nightmare to maintain, mostly because, every other week, someone would find a way to make one of them "OP" and it would need "Nerfing" or some of them would be "Not worth it" and need "buffing" because they suck (But then someone works out how to make the new buffed version OP.....)

    That said, the actual solution to this, is to make it very, very clear, that clerics are expected to uphold their dogma at all times, that the DM's word on if you managed to do that is final (as in, there are zero appeals, otherwise it becomes even MORE paperwork than apps srsly) and then heavily enforce cleric roleplay with the DM team. Which already has generally agreed methods of doing so.

    This would probably cause some complaints from people losing their cleric spells when they disagree with the DM's, but that is why I said to make it VERY VERY Clear, like when you create a cleric, or take a cleric level, it stuff a message in your face stating it or something. And then just make playing a cleric a risky thing, where you are at the mercy of a fickle being you might not fully understand. Kind of sounds like religous struggle anyway.


  • Arabel City Militia

    @zool said in Some balance suggestions for the new level range:

    That said, the actual solution to this, is to make it very, very clear, that clerics are expected to uphold their dogma at all times, that the DM's word on if you managed to do that is final (as in, there are zero appeals, otherwise it becomes even MORE paperwork than apps srsly) and then heavily enforce cleric roleplay with the DM team. Which already has generally agreed methods of doing so.

    I do think this will only occur in very extreme occasions though. Also DMs should not view that type of thing as a punishment but an evolution of the PC's story. Simply removing divine spells from a PC cleric would make that cleric redundant, they should be more imaginative (e.g., turning the PC into a talking dog or something) that would keep the PC from quitting, and may even encourage them to keep going.

    Maybe PCs should set up some do's and don'ts for a cleric, but I do think long-term there may need to be some mechanical changes if CB is right and clerics become massively OP. It's just a matter of finding a neat solution that 1. requires no app 2. does not start an endless debate on whether builds are OP (e.g., ecl penalties on clerics over 10?).


  • DMs

    DM's truly don't see losing spells as a punishment. It's literally a new section of a characters story.

    Players, understandably, do see it as a punishment though. There's little way to get around it. DM's generally give some kind of hints to what a player should try to do, if they want to regain their spells, or even convert to a different deity, this is normally done IC, but OOC as well often when players ask, generally if they are distressed about it.

    It's just one of those things with a roleplaying server. It shouldn't really matter if clerics are OP or not, they should just have much more accountability to the roleplay requirements than most other classes.


  • DMs

    @stevelichman said in Some balance suggestions for the new level range:

    @chips The last thing the DMs want is to create more paperwork. Remember the brief time monks were advised to send in an app detailing the code they were following?

    We also have a lot of great RPers on this server who simply suck at apps. Why should their stories be impeded by an OOC issue?

    This and adding agreement to Zool.

    I have long been in favor, even as a player to have clerics under far greater scrutiny etc. The new levels will certainly have a learning curve associated with them.

    We'll deal with the problem if/when it becomes a problem. Feedback and suggestions like this is vital as we continue the transition to a higher average level server so please keep them coming.



  • On Clerics

    @stevelichman said in Some balance suggestions for the new level range:

    @chips The last thing the DMs want is to create more paperwork. Remember the brief time monks were advised to send in an app detailing the code they were following?

    We also have a lot of great RPers on this server who simply suck at apps. Why should their stories be impeded by an OOC issue?

    @puffy said in Some balance suggestions for the new level range:

    Yeah, I am not a fan of people apping to be certain levels

    My suggestion wasn't to app to be certain levels, or to app at all. It was that you can level as much as you want, but you have to EIG the ability to actually cast spells past a certain circle. EIG isn't app, and this doesn't prevent you from leveling either.

    It doesn't fix the entire balancing scheme around clerics but it's a start. If anyone's got a better suggestion that'd be great.

    The mechanical reasoning behind the access to higher circles being removed is that. There are simply too many spells in play that make clerics op, if one gets nerfed, clerics will simply prepare more of the other, it'd be a full time job to nerf them all. We'd simply have to come to terms that clerics will simply have to be stronger than most other classes in the game (by a pretty wide margin).

    Following the standard of something being super strong but having to stay, CoA's policy has always been that if we can't mechanically nerf it, we need to apply higher rp standards to it.

    Basically crack down a lot harder on people who play clerics and don't fulfill their roles in FR, high level clerics attract far more attention from their gods, you're at high priest levels at this point and your god is going to care a lot more whether or not you're misrepresenting his faith. So it'd make sense that you don't get big boy spells if you don't do your job.


    On Monks

    @CrystalRL said

    Re:monks. It's currently a Lv12 feat that gives 10+Monk level. It's the last big feat monks get in our level range, and requires that you pure class, losing out on some ab (vs ranger or fighter) or damage (vs rogue).

    Monks are op because of several perks not just one, it'd be better to rebalance those perks than remove them completely, but we can't just take away from every single thing they've got and not give anything back.

    Everyone starts at level 6, so giving them the sr at level 1 isn't really as big an issue. Getting the SR at level 6 and having it scale up from that point on prevents powerspikes where something is useless at one level and invincible the next, which is good for game balance. And giving the perk earlier justifies making the perk weaker as a tradeoff, it feels more fair while being good for game balance.

    I don't think it should be a Lv1 feat, which makes the 1 monk dip even tastier. Perhaps Lv8 if you cull it to 5+level. Channelki doesn't function properly atm, so I can't tell how good 5+level SR is.

    It'd be 5+class level, not 5+level, if you take one level you get 6 SR, a level 6 wizard could roll a 1 and still get through your SR.

    Also Monk kits are going out the window, they were based on a 7 level progression for a lvl 1-10 server, now people almost start at level 7, so the monk kits will have to be revised (especially with monks being hyper strong at high levels)


  • DMs

    Yes, monk kits were mostly due to monks getting a lot of their coolest stuff at higher levels. That's no longer a problem.

    They were also for RP flavour though, so hopefully that part can be rectified at some point.



  • Gear comes to mind.



  • @zool said in Some balance suggestions for the new level range:

    Yes, monk kits were mostly due to monks getting a lot of their coolest stuff at higher levels. That's no longer a problem.

    They were also for RP flavour though, so hopefully that part can be rectified at some point.

    100% agree with this, the flavour of Monks being rewarded for following specific styles of combat was thematically awesome and flavourful as hell. I'd love to see even a watered down version return.


  • DMs

    I had no idea that monks would be that murderous at higher levels. Thanks to @Chips @CitizenBane for the education