V6 Level Range Round II



  • People bringing up the v6 level range increase might be a bad idea. Holding an informal vote so I stop seeing people asking about it.

    DISCLAIMER: DMs may or may not take this into account. This is just asking other players.



  • Please no. God no.. don't do this. Thou hast no idea the pandora's box you are opening with higher levels!

    Balance is FAR WORSE the more levels there are.



  • I voted other. I would support a level increase if it didn't just mean the same people would hover at seven and eight while another group of people would advance to 15 and 16. I don't see this doing anything but increasing the power gap between mechanically skilled and unskilled players. It's always tempting to try something, yes. But I'm already seeing where problems will emerge.



  • I'm not too concerned about this vote, based on a conversation that was going on in discord today. Spiffy is right. When the fingers of death and flesh to stones start flying around all the time, people will be crying for the level range to go back down.



  • I personally think with the increased level range, the power gap will widen instead of shrink. The gaps between classes will also get more imbalanced. We have over ten years of work into our current balance system, do we really want to throw it all away and start over?



  • Higher levels means you can multiclass more. But yeah, I can see a larger power gap happening too.



  • Went with no. Having recently played on a server with similar level range... it's just not fun if you ain't a spellcaster.



  • Power creep.



  • When we were pitching these ideas for a new server some months ago, I said characters should start at, and be locked at level 7.

    The entire point was to remove leveling up as a concept, and make the game resource and equipment driven. Certain resources could be expended in order to obtain powered up items, and large lumps of this special resource could be used to provide you an additional level up to a maximum of 10. So basically, your max level was 10, but you started at 7. This made levels almost a non-factor. Your build was important, but your equipment was even more important, and no matter how "high level" you were, you could still be executed easily.

    Level 6 is nice, but I don't like the idea of level 16 being the top end of that cap.

    If level 16 is reachable, characters should start at 10.



  • The new level range was meant to be for V6 where the whole mod would be balanced around the new levels. Obviously things changed and the levels were changed for V5. Best thing to do it stay positive and use this as an opportunity to beta test the balance for V6. Version 2 was level 1-16+ and it worked, obviously things are way more complex now but give it more time. D&D was never meant to be perfectly equal between classes over all levels. Post bugs and balance issues on the forum if you want to help.



  • @dinolore said in V6 Level Range Round II:

    The new level range was meant to be for V6 where the whole mod would be balanced around the new levels. Obviously things changed and the levels were changed for V5. Best thing to do it stay positive and use this as an opportunity to beta test the balance for V6. Version 2 was level 1-16+ and it worked, obviously things are way more complex now but give it more time. D&D was never meant to be perfectly equal between classes over all levels. Post bugs and balance issues on the forum if you want to help.

    No, you're right, it was never meant to be perfectly balanced but the more levels the bigger that difference gets.

    Balance in the current levels has been hell and never ends, add more levels and it becomes ten times worse. I've no doubt the team will do their best but most people have 0 idea how daunting the task of getting things balance at the higher levels actually is.

    Most people think it gives a bit more buffer since you have more HP but all it does is to make PvP a much bigger squash match than it is currently.

    Yes it has more multiclassing options but those options leave an even bigger gap. The gap between optimized and non optimized builds becomes a canyon. Too many people see the higher number and want it, not realizing the consequenses and i personally think that anyone voting yes for this change should be put to work on balancing for it >.>



  • I play rogues and caster. Rogues and casters are more fun with higher levels. Mine's a selfish vote, but a vote still.

    I would also be open to a fixed level server at lvl 12, where you start at 12 and can't proceed beyond 12.
    The up side to this is that it leaves us just below the finger of death/destruction/etc spam, makes balancing easier since level gaps don't need to be factored, removes the feeling that you "need" to grind quests for xp.
    The cons are that DMs have one fewer way to reward players, since xp does nothing and the death penalty will need to be adjusted.
    Other points regarding this is that character progression will shift further towards loot and rp power (political positions, pacts, etc).



  • @people said in V6 Level Range Round II:

    I voted other. I would support a level increase if it didn't just mean the same people would hover at seven and eight while another group of people would advance to 15 and 16. I don't see this doing anything but increasing the power gap between mechanically skilled and unskilled players. It's always tempting to try something, yes. But I'm already seeing where problems will emerge.

    I usually stop leveling and start RP at 8. That was my old mode of operation:. XP from cool stuff and involving people would eventually see me crawl up to 10 or so in the fullness of time.

    Now it's like, wow guys okay holy Sierra Nevada Batman.



  • @redgallant said in V6 Level Range Round II:

    @people said in V6 Level Range Round II:

    I voted other. I would support a level increase if it didn't just mean the same people would hover at seven and eight while another group of people would advance to 15 and 16. I don't see this doing anything but increasing the power gap between mechanically skilled and unskilled players. It's always tempting to try something, yes. But I'm already seeing where problems will emerge.

    I usually stop leveling and start RP at 8. That was my old mode of operation:. XP from cool stuff and involving people would eventually see me crawl up to 10 or so in the fullness of time.

    Now it's like, wow guys okay holy Sierra Nevada Batman.

    I'd do that as well but my playtime was around 10 to 16 hours a day so of course I tend to get to level 12 within a month or two.



  • @citizenbane

    I suppose its what your idea of balance is and what your end goal is. I've never been of the opinion that classes should be equal in PvP or PvM and they never have been and never will be. But character strengths lie in difference aspects of the game as a whole and some are going to excel at PvM, some at PvP, some at different RP aspects or skill requirements. Most all classes are good at one aspect of PvM. PvP is very circumstantial like a high level Mage or Cleric could wreck everyone or a Rogue could assassinate the Mage. Or you could get a band of fighters with clubs and club the cleric to death while hes walking around in a robe. I don't see why a Fighter or Barbarian must match the Wizard in effectiveness? Harper Scout excluded.

    I suppose I don't get what elements are exactly game breaking?



  • @dinolore said in V6 Level Range Round II:

    @citizenbane

    I suppose its what your idea of balance is and what your end goal is. I've never been of the opinion that classes should be equal in PvP or PvM and they never have been and never will be. But character strengths lie in difference aspects of the game as a whole and some are going to excel at PvM, some at PvP, some at different RP aspects or skill requirements. Most all classes are good at one aspect of PvM. PvP is very circumstantial like a high level Mage or Cleric could wreck everyone or a Rogue could assassinate the Mage. Or you could get a band of fighters with clubs and club the cleric to death while hes walking around in a robe. I don't see why a Fighter or Barbarian must match the Wizard in effectiveness? Harper Scout excluded.

    I suppose I don't get what elements are exactly game breaking?

    As BG said above, it's just not fun if you're not a spellcaster. At our current high levels, spellcasters are already way ahead of the curve in terms of power. Add in 4 more levels and that gap turns into a canyon.

    My idea of balance is not being 100% dependent on the OOC mercy of someone because they could choose to end me at any time and there was nothing i could do about it.

    As for what elements exactly it is that are so gamebreaking, I simply cannot be bothered go explain every bit of mechanic if you do not know already, and if you don't truly understand it, you shouldn't be voting yes.



  • @citizenbane Well I haven't voted but I see where you are coming from. Mid levels can have the same thing with hold person or phantasmal killer vs certain classes or characters. But I see how it becomes more overwhelming at the higher levels. I think I just have a different play style. For example some of the most fun I ever had on CoA was with a group of level 3-5 troublemakers who would harass a level 7 guard and run away from the War Wizard before they were walloped. War wizard would cast hold person and phant killer and the others would run interference until we could escape. We all got routinely jailed.



  • @dinolore said in V6 Level Range Round II:

    @citizenbane Well I haven't voted but I see where you are coming from. Mid levels can have the same thing with hold person or phantasmal killer vs certain classes or characters. But I see how it becomes more overwhelming at the higher levels. I think I just have a different play style. For example some of the most fun I ever had on CoA was with a group of level 3-5 troublemakers who would harass a level 7 guard and run away from the War Wizard before they were walloped. War wizard would cast hold person and phant killer and the others would run interference until we could escape. We all got routinely jailed.

    Understandable. But lower levels help keep such things more viable or at least possible. Whereas the power creep of higher levels diminishes the possibilities of such concepts.



  • I do not see the issue, and welcome the change.

    • It allows actual use of PRCs, which at our level makes jack shit sense.
    • It allows for multiclassing in general. ATM, multiclassing work best with classes that are front loaded. That will change, when you can be a level 10 cleric, 5 rogue.
    • Loot will increase in potency, to build a bridge between spellcasters and not so spellcasters.

    Sure, pure casters gain power. But so do everyone else. For instance, Improved power attack is hardly worth it in our current level range, but add a few more, and imagine a War made crit with a power attack on a wizard... OUCH!



  • @o-louth said in V6 Level Range Round II:

    I do not see the issue, and welcome the change.

    • It allows actual use of PRCs, which at our level makes jack shit sense.
    • It allows for multiclassing in general. ATM, multiclassing work best with classes that are front loaded. That will change, when you can be a level 10 cleric, 5 rogue.
    • Loot will increase in potency, to build a bridge between spellcasters and not so spellcasters.

    Sure, pure casters gain power. But so do everyone else. For instance, Improved power attack is hardly worth it in our current level range, but add a few more, and imagine a War made crit with a power attack on a wizard... OUCH!

    You're wrong actually, mutliclassing loses a LOT of power and those "flavorful" build will drag even further behind anything remotely optimal. The difference you see now becomes much, much bigger. I'm sorry 😕