Keep Conflict Alive
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I'm starting to feel like people dislike me as a person for playing a game.
Course, doesn't really bother me, as I like to pretend you are all highly complex artificial intelligence systems. It makes it easier to not care when people whine at you for having fun.
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Obviously people feel slighted in one way or another in this particular situation so is there a way to take away some positives?
If someone is going to be let off for OOC considerations then I think the DMs might get better feedback if they do the following:
1. Reward the players who won. Whether it's a pat on the back from NPC or lewt and gold give the victor some spoils. Make it clear that taking a cut from the 'losers' main equipment and all their gold isn't acceptable.
2. Don't punish the players who won. Don't blame a PC unless it's warranted for someone's escape if its an OOC reason behind the event. Having everyone blame you because the DM decided your captured foe is going to walk is a difficult situation not every player is going to take well.
3. Have a NPC step up and explain it IC. Have someone say, "We found out X and we need to see who they run back to, so we're going to let them run," or let the PCs involved in on a little more of the plot out of 'winning' this round. Have a positive come from it. Give the 'winners' a short DM quest afterward that walks them through finding out more about the hidden truth behind the fighting. Set up a chase that leads to PvDM stuff. (I loved fighting Isakar*, but it was so much more informative when I got my mitts on a Fireknife assasin NPC that worked for him I could beat info out of.)
PvP is great, but DMs should be there with NPCs to give the plot depth.** If the PvP is just about an evil group of adventuring buddies who go around attacking other PCs then it's not really all that fun. There should be ways to work against other groups besides fighting that includes working against NPCs.
4. The playing field has been evened, don't go too far. A lot of DM help for evil occurred because 90% of the server used to be good and run by good factions with battalions of armed militia, knights and war wizards. There's a lot of places for evil to hide, lots of places for them to rule and factions for them to go to for support. They still have the tougher road to take, but it's a lot less bumpy.
A lot of the problem is the problem with a PW; where not everyone is on the server all the times, and the cast of characters changes day to day– you keep up with what you can keep tabs on, then bam! everyone shows up*** for Gankfest 2k11 with fireballs and darkness all over the place, the dust settles and everyone is wondering what to do next. Then some asshole says, "Hey this guy had 10,000 gold on him!" <you see="" x="" taking="" things="" from="" y's="" belongings="">. Whether PvP is going to be FD, full looting, what the other players have done in the past ends up completely ruled by rumor... so we're going to kill them? I heard they killed ___.
When people are left in the dark, they start filling in the blanks and jump to conclusions that just aren't accurate. Then they get pissed and overreact.
*- old reference. Pretend I've been relevant as a player in the past 5 years.
** - This is why 'robin hood', 'bandits of the road' ,etc. always seem lame for PvP. A bunch of players randomly hitting PCs for cash on the roads with no greater depth to them. It seems a 'plot' like something better left to the AI and spawns.
*** - why everyone show up? I know we all love a crowd, but come on. I saw 3 characters 3rd level or lower charge a demon... a big, on fire demon with a name and everything this past week. If you and your 15 friends have been fighting a PC group for 2 weeks, don't make it an all-call to finish them off. The sending system is the tool is used for the most evil in game.
This post has nothing to do with the cult. I do not know the cult. I died in an unrelated event seconds after meeting them for the first time and have not seen their work.
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I see people here speaking about how they "put effort" into their characters. That leaves me with a "wtf" feeling. This is a GAME. You're here to have FUN. You put effort in your WORK and STUDIES, not into your LEISURE.
People put effort into their hobbies. If someone likes playing mechanic and fixing up an old car in their free time, they put effort into it -or the car will never get finished.
If someone goes to the gym for fun, they put effort into it - as evidenced by the sweat on their brow when they finish.
If someone goes to chess club for their free time, they put effort into it - at least those people who win the regular championships in the club.Why would this particular hobby be different?
As a final example which is closer to this, DMs and GMs across the world, whether it's ours here, PnP ones, PbP ones, or some other form, put effort into DMing. It is not their work. It is not their study. It is their leisure.
I'm starting to feel like people dislike me as a person for playing a game.
Murji has been the closest thing my character has had to a nemesis throughout his existence, from the time he was a rookie and you mugged him in the sewers to the moment I convinced you to undo my mistake.
There is nothing to dislike about it. -
Maybe this is totally off-topic, maybe it is not. But it is something I have been wanting (or trying) to say for long, so here it is.
PVP
These three wonderfully mistaken, misunderstood and underestimated letters.
I will use once again, despite being so hackneyed, the example of the Cult. Everyone that speaks of pvp with the cult identifies it as two groups of people meeting somewhere and having a mechanical battle. Honestly, it's so boring. It is as if everyone trying to battle us perceive us as simply another group of NPCs at the end of a DM plot. We are individuals. There are different undercurrents in the Cult. A cleric of a god that is a psycho and has nothing to do with the Eye. A guy who most likely cares about a girl more than the Cult. An halfling who would sell his mother. A human that (afaik) only cared about having his woman/pet back, and power. What I'm trying to say is that we are a group of very diverse characters, each of one special in his own way. If the only way you find to interact with us is just to meet and slash at each other, we could do that in a match of Lol. It also makes me a little bit sad. The only character who has attempted to create a relationship with me was a paladin I have severely beaten, and I'm glad for the turn the events have taken. This is a roleplay server. The best thing of it is creating relationships with other characters, that will in turn create depth. Hatred, love, friendship, rivalry. This is what makes the server epic. Meeting on top of a cliff to spam F1-F12 is rather dull.
And what's more important is that once you build a relationship, all these 12 pages of thread become pointless. Because the guy in front of you is not "Black Dressed Necromancer" or "Sheriff of Eastway" anymore. It is "Artemis Entreri", the assassin of Calimport, the human that embodies everything you have attempted to flee from, everything you reject in your life, or "Drizzt Do'Urden", the drow that you see as the mountain you must climb, your nemesis that by his own existance allows you to pursue perfection. And once you reach that point you will not question yourself about FD anymore, because you know that should you ever reach the point of a life or death clash, that will be the climax of your tale, and one of you will survive, while the other will become legend. -
Forba and Nikko get it folks. That's CoA right there in my book and they've said it much better than I have probably.
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have the saved pvpers already caused a pk?
if that is the case, the ones defeating them will have a sense of being cheated if they did not at least inflict a similar loss on the group.
i do not know all the particulars, so i cannot say a lot, pvp has to be moderated, i have seen both extremes over the years, where it is a fun event had by all, winners and losers to the other end of the spectrum where many on both sides end up feeling like simply walking away, both the winners and the losers
the most fun i have had in the past was when two warring groups have set each other to hostile, this is before the hostile tool, so they had to click each person, i remember both sides setting me to hostile (there were times when 60 to 80% of the population had me set to dislike), i remember several of those events ending well as far as fun for those involved, and it really got my blood pumping too!
good pvp can be good for the server..bad pvp can make people quit
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^^^ See Foba's comment. It's spot on.
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What are so meaningful ways for good characters to PVP bad characters and get a win and benefit without finishing another character?
As an evil character you can attack another group, beat them, take some gold and it's win all around. You get to scare some characters, generate some conflict, earn a little gold (or take a plot item) and not do any real damage. It's fun, I've done this with previous characters, and you pretty much stay as a nice guy OOC.
In the reverse situation, as the good guy, what do you do? It's not really ic just to grab some gold and say to the bloodstone seller/murderer whatever, got out of here you little scamp! I suppose the situation where the bad guy is captured and then let go by the law system is a possibility, and is certainly similar to real life, but I would like to hear what people think as alternatives.
As the mechanics of PVP depends on so much, who is online at the time, gold for consumables (a big one!), mechanical skill etc, I think it is great the DM's intervene to make it more fun. There is a reason they are the DM's and I generally trust that that is there intention, to make it more fun for everyone. A bunch of characters drinking a ton of potions then coming out of invisibilty and wiping the floor with their enemies is not a fun way for characters to end.
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Why not a compromise?
I distinctly remember A DM posting a thread In a faction forum along the lines of "things are beginning to escalate, everyone should be prepared for pvp". It is clear, to the point. Why not make this the policy? Dms don't need to intervene in every minor conflict, but for faction conflict this could be the norm. Factions would proceed to go on a non fd basis which still allows beating, looting, etc, etc. When dms are satisfied they could give a green light and players will be prepared. This could be done easily and clearly with a forum thread when the conflict has matured.
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@Neolithic:
^^^ See Foba's comment. It's spot on.
I've never done this before, but…
+1
Whoo... easier than I thought.
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+1
I don't mind doing it because Foba did nail it. If I'd been smacked down and FD'd with or without a dm by someone who knew who my character was, because of who my character was, I wouldn't have this bitter taste in my mouth.
I have been gracefully FD'd a number of times. I have never complained about any of these deaths, and all my characters stayed dead. Some of them had not had any previous PVP preceding them, and some of them came at the hands of characters were mechanically superior. However, they were still awesome because my various killers were cool enough to do it in such a way that played into who my character was and the story I was trying to tell. My character could have been anyone when I was getting stomped into the ground in this case, and that sucks.
I've seen very little of what I consider to be good PVP here, and can't be in favor of this intercession as a result. Mostly just a lot of random PVP wanks with lots of potions. That nobody has been FD'd as a result of them is not evidence towards them being satisfying to the losers.
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Disclaimer - I didnt read 85% of this thread as it fell in the TL;DR category
so I only answered the original question.tl;dr version in bold at top and bottom
I'm curious dear players, how do you think we should keep conflict alive as DMs and how can you do it as players, without stretching bonds of believability?
In initial conflicts allow the enemy avenues of escape.
As a DM provide an opportunity for those who want to escape the ability to do so by means of a random passerby butting in and witnessing the event or somesuch encounter that forces the bad guys to divert attention, but only momentarily. just enough for the other team to leg it if they want to
@Mr.Moloch:tl;dr version–-Should DMs help make sure PvP doesn't end in PKing, even when it may make sense IC, just to ensure that the fun generated by the conflicts continue?
short answer no.
long answer, usually not but obviously there will always be grey areas that have to be judged upon by those who have the ability to do so.. IE the Dm's.Lastly, I have to say being excecuted by the law after capture is a terrible way to end a character.. unless more of point one can be woven into the sotry.. IE a balanced escape attempt.
Having payed in the Red harts before I completely agree with the decision of a trial by combat. a great situation all round even though on an IC level most characters cannot agree.. To them I say, deal with it IC'ly -
After Foba and Nikko the rest is:
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Should DMs help make sure PvP doesn't end in PKing, even when it may make sense IC, just to ensure that the fun generated by the conflicts continue?
You have to take into account CoA is DM driven not player driven so most "fun" groups that dm's find intresting are linking into dm plots and as such dm's are going to feel they want one action or another to happen and steer things in that direction.
The trouble with this is you take away the freedom that players have with there characters,what happened to the druids or the slime peaple should of been left to the players involved that a DM stepped in and made things happen as they wished them strips that control away.
Not that the DM didn't give them room to make more fun for each other but by interveneing you prevent the characters from acting how they should of done.
This can create a double standard if it happens alot and it is only one group that is getting such treatment,it will also put off others from interacting with the group as foes as they know ahead of time they will always lose/not win because of a dm not because of the group.
Disclaimer.
I personaly only play on CoA casualy and don't get involved in plots anymore as i don't have the time im not argueing with the various players that have posted here as im not involved in the events i was just answering the question with my own oppinon. -
Yes, we're careful not to help any one group over any other group.
Which I think is a point many are missing in their complaints. It isn't really about giving players total free play. If we were to do that, this server honestly would suck.
Those with the most mechanical power to win pvp would be the top dogs and everyone else would quit because its no fun.
You have DMs here as referees, so people should ideally try to understand the rules of the game, why the referees make the calls they do, and feel free to talk to us calmly about calls they disagree with.
We're aiming to make sure a story gets told that is fun for EVERYONE, not just one group or person, or the guy who won the pvp or the guy lost it. Helping the druids last longer to fight the Cult, then helping the Cult last longer to fight the druids, and helping the Red Harts and Guild last longer to fight the Cult has built up an epic confrontation which the DMs will let play out however people want it to play out tomorrow.
If in the meanwhile, someone feels 'robbed' or 'rail roaded' that he wasn't able to make all this awesome stuff not happen because we didn't let him PK someone first–then I need to ask why they play in a community roleplaying game like ours.
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How exactly does this DM assistance manifest?
What exactly to the DMs do to help out a faction? Might help to the argument to see some detailed examples, either a hypothetical or real.
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Examples I've seen include giving Zrukk the chance to escape by ordering William to duel him, rescuing Jacob by the appearance of a Malarite panther to save his life, the appearance of (this one is kinda old, and was caused by a misunderstanding, but it fits) a massive monstrous gelatinous cube when we had the previous great villain cornered, and I'm pretty sure the Fire Knife or whatever Assassin popping up when the Cult was dragging me through the sewers was not a lucky coincidence.
EDIT: Though that were only the direct interferences I know. There is more than likely a ton of more subtle stuff going on I can't see.
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A few simple examples:
1). Gank Squad has captured a druid and plan to kill him. A malar panther appears and causes a distraction, allowing the druid to escape.
2). PCs have captured a slime cultist, a huge slime wanders past and causes a distraction allowing the cultist to escape.
3). Gank Squad (including paladins) used ambush and trickery to capture a cultist. The paladin's superiors suggest to atone for his use of trickery he face the captured cultist in an honorable single combat that if he wins ends in execution, if he loses, ends in the cultist being released and exiled from the city.
4). PCs kills a prominent PC due to a mistakingly thinking he worked against their group, when he really works for it. NPCs had the PC raised.
Typically, all that is happening is DMs nudge events so that the group that lost PvP doesn't wind up PK'ed and instead escape humbled, maybe shy some items. Everyone involved gets a nice XP bonus, usually more for the group that 'won' the encounter.
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Grodd damn it Moloch! The "Fear Will Keep Them In Line" [Invented and copyrighted by DMULK] protocol will not work half as well if the player base realises that dms are fair, and rational creatures!
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One gank to rule them all.