Undead and Heal Spell Interactions: Suggested Improvements



  • Problem: Healing spells do negative damage to undead on CoA instead of positive as per D&D and NWN default.

    Symptom 1: The change was made to prevent Dobbying an undead boss NPC (1500+ damage blasts in one Heal).

    Symptom 2: It now deals negative damage (and permits a DM to put a Negative Energy Protection effect on a boss if its suspected a Heal will be used).

    Suggestion: With Heal being capped at 10/level, and at most the earliest you can get is 90, and most likely maximum is 120, to change it back to Positive damage as per D&D and NWN default. A level 9 cleric can prepare 2 Heals at most with Healing Domain, which deprives them of other valuable buffs at the circle 5 and 6 level.



  • I would like to note the most recent heal change was driven by myself blowing up a dread knight with a heal scroll but the suggestion stands as being a good one.



  • Yes, doing positive damage to undead makes sense. Not sure why it was set to do Negative.



  • @mr-moloch said in Undead and Heal Spell Interactions: Suggested Improvements:

    Yes, doing positive damage to undead makes sense. Not sure why it was set to do Negative.

    It was outlined in the OP. I asked @Zool and others about this back in 2015, and it was explained the change was done to prevent another Dobbying via slapping NEP on the target. Since it's not possible to do that anymore (assuming not having some sort of unusual vulnerability combination...), it should be reverted back to standard damage types.



  • If it's changed back, PC Undead might struggle unless a suitable counter was put in play. The way things stand, a PC undead has a chance to counter healing spell/ wand spam in PvP with NEP pot/ spell.



  • As Listen4silence brings up PC undead, I now am against the suggestion.

    PC undead have it hard enough without cure crit wands destroying them.



  • @listen4silence said in Undead and Heal Spell Interactions: Suggested Improvements:

    If it's changed back, PC Undead might struggle unless a suitable counter was put in play. The way things stand, a PC undead has a chance to counter healing spell/ wand spam in PvP with NEP pot/ spell.

    Also valid. Likely a factor in why NEP works, granted there's recipes for stuff such as Negative Essence ingame.



  • Yes, one thing we're trying to figure out is "positive energy damage".

    Right now, we have a problem that we need some kind of damage that can not be countered to handle the bleeding scripts.

    So we avoid providing anything that could grant positive energy resistance. Right now, this is probably a low-priority issue to consider because the above is the higher priority to consider.



  • I believe the bleedout was changed to divine. If not, there's a necklace bibidi in the halfling shop that provide 10 positive resistance.



  • I think he means the damage from the wounding attacks, like vampire bats have?

    Bleeding out basically never happens, because the monsters dont stop swinging over here on COA.



  • Bleeding is piercing damage.

    The only spell that does positive is an epic spell, whereas there are spells (and abilities, like Divine Might) that do magical and divine. Therefore, it makes more sense for bleedout to be positive (and to have that gdmfing glass amulet removed).

    Afaik, there are two weapons that do general positive damage. One is an Arena item with the No Damage property. The other is a particular spear, which does 1 positive damage and has no AB modifier.



  • It's bleed out damage Moloch means.

    And yeah, at one point, it was changed to divine damage, because we hadn't decided what damage type to use for all "Scripted" damage.

    It used to use magical damage, but, items appeared in the game that allowed you to either block this, or, become weaker to it.

    Consider that upon logging in, you can be damaged by a script, to reset your health to what it should be, and you can see why you might not want items that can give you a vulnerability to the type of damage used for scripted damage!

    (things like bleeding out, falling down pits, stuff that is applied by a script, and should never be negated by an item or a spell unless directly specificed within that script itself, equally, you should never be able to get modifiers to this damage type, like, say, a 100% vulnerability to it. Because... if you get 100% vuln to the damage type used by falling damage, you might just die, really fast, when you really shouldn't have!)

    I have no idea about undead and pos/neg damage.

    I'd massively prefer it didn't use negative damage, for the reasons people are citing as reasons FOR it to use neg damage!

    For me, undead having the weakness of healing spells working as damaging spells, is the entire basis of the subrace. And I personally have a dislike for being able to cover weaknesses, of any kind.

    Then again, if it was up to me, fighters would never be able to have reflex saves above 5, wizards could never have fortitude saves above 5, and barbarians would have will saves maxed at 5. Or something equally terrible.



  • I thought the standard NWN system was ok? Doesn't it make you make a touch attack? Which is not a guarantee for your average cleric. Plus AoO and concentration check. Undead generally come in groups/hordes so healing has never been an effective tactic, until you reach the lich or something.

    Doesn't Negative damage 'heal' undead, so how does that work? If heal is 10hp/level already then I can't see a problem.

    Scroll/wand spam is a problem with loot/consumable bloat.



  • Negative damage does not heal undead. The vanilla spells that deal negative damage are programmed to instead heal undead.



  • @crystalrl said in Undead and Heal Spell Interactions: Suggested Improvements:

    Negative damage does not heal undead. The vanilla spells that deal negative damage are programmed to instead heal undead.

    Yes, thankfully, some things in the game aren't hard coded, which is nice.



  • It also means that Elemental Orb: Negative can be used vs undead to kill them 😛



  • @crystalrl said in Undead and Heal Spell Interactions: Suggested Improvements:

    It also means that Elemental Orb: Negative can be used vs undead to kill them 😛

    Well yeah, but that's a bug (exploit??) and needs to be fixed.


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