The App System - Proposed Changes



  • Right now, DMs need to have a majority of votes, which means that DMs as a whole need to get access to everything a PC is doing in order to make the right decision. I'm certain that isn't possible or feasible and, in the end, the vote is done based on personal preferences or opinions, instead of being data/evidence driven as it should be.

    I'd like to suggest that the App System is ONLY used for ON CREATION requests such as:

    • Nobility;
    • Special background or power that requires scripting;
    • Starting off with a faction base, higher faction rank or perk;
    • Any ECL +3 and up subraces;

    All other subraces and initial ranks of all factions become appless.


    Everything else, that would fit into EiG (promotions, PRCs, nobility, perks, pacts, etc) would simply require documentation and evidence from other PCs and/or DMs, not necessarily DM-only input and an application.

    • If a PC has documented his progress in the forums/player plot tickets providing EVIDENCE of it;
    • If a PC has engaged with depth with other PCs and has their recommendation for it;
    • If a PC gets at least ONE DM support for it and say he's earned it;

    That should be enough to verify it.

    What do you think?



  • Please Clarify what +3 CL subraces are.

    If it means subraces with +2 in two different stats require no application I am strongly against it. Example: Tiefling, Aasimar, Genasi



  • Yeah, I don’t want to see loads of subraces legging it around.

    Keep all subraces requiring an app, please.



  • @smilingdog said in The App System - Proposed Changes:

    Please Clarify what +3 CL subraces are.

    If it means subraces with +2 in two different stats require no application I am strongly against it. Example: Tiefling, Aasimar, Genasi

    Those are ECL0 so no.

    ECL3+ are things like half-dragon with major stat bonuses as a metric for what Gumba's talking about.

    @solarfall said in The App System - Proposed Changes:

    Yeah, I don’t want to see loads of subraces legging it around.

    Keep all subraces requiring an app, please.

    Same thing happens with appless week! 😛



  • Appless week is a one off, this wouldn't be.


  • Admin [DM]

    @gumba said in The App System - Proposed Changes:

    Everything else, that would fit into EiG (promotions, PRCs, nobility, perks, pacts, etc) would simply require documentation and evidence from other PCs and/or DMs, not necessarily DM-only input and an application.

    If a PC has documented his progress in the forums/player plot tickets providing EVIDENCE of it;
    If a PC has engaged with depth with other PCs and has their recommendation for it;
    If a PC gets at least ONE DM support for it and say he's earned it;

    That should be enough to verify it.
    What do you think?

    tbh this is basically what an EiG app is, with the player sending the DMs the documentation/reasoning of their EiG or the DMs doing it for the player. We still gotta vote on it as a team to make things fair and to ensure we all have the same standards.



  • I think apps should be tweaked a little as far as requirements go as well. I believe it should be allowed for one to play an app for something, so long as they can explain a clear understanding of what they are apping for in their app.

    Do you -need- to be a tiefling if your concept is leader of a thieves guild? No, but what if you want to be? If you can show DMs you have a general grasp on what a tiefling is all about, then you should be allowed to play one. You shouldn't necessarily need to add in a "how will accepting this app benefit the server" line.

    That said it is a totally okay of course for DMs to turn your app down simply because there's too many of "X" running around already.



  • @puffy Its not. Today its pretty much a debate over personal opinions, not if a PC has truely earned it. When you are required consensus on something, it means all DMs needs to be on par with what is truely going on with a PC in order to be fair. That does not happen. Even with DM Plots, we've seem documentation to be lacking, and do you really think all DMs are reading our entire Faction Forum/PC Journals to get that information? They don't have the time for that...

    The idea to solve this is have other PC references and resort to forum working as a whole and not necessarily need DM majority over a form to push forth.


    To the other guys that replied it, do you have a suggestion of how to improve it or make it work or just came here to say you disagree and not add anything of value to it? If you wanna say you disagree, propose changes to it.

    From what I understood you are saying: Any ECL +1 and up subraces should require apps, instead of ECL +3 then? Why? Is it because they are too magical? Is it because they are too powerful? Will it hurt your feelings? Is that your personal preference because it breaks immersion in an already magical world? Elaborate further!



  • Anyone, if your feelings hurt please fill out this form.

    http://www.redonkulas.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/DA-FORM-IMTWF1.pdf

    They are too powerful to be free, and will be a de-facto choice over stock races, aside from the master race - dwarves.

    Can I add anything constructive to it?

    No.

    APPs are a popularity concept, sure your right but life isn't fair and letting everyone play everything will just make that special snowflake concept a little less meaningful when your Aasimar goes for a drink with his five Aasimar friends. Getting a cool subrace is supposed to be special, in my view - a reward the DM team is giving you for past characters who have been well played and contributed to the server.



  • I don't like it. I think it's less work to decide on an app once than having to keep tabs on "progress" threads and PMs.

    It might also make subraces even more common than they already are, making them less magical and desirable.

    Also the idea that you can earn EiG stuff with ONE DM's support is recipe for things like favoritism, DM's arguing with one another, players challenging them, and a whole lot of drama.

    You wrote to not write a reply if we disagree and just propose changes but if we dislike the entire idea, the change would be "don't do any of that." Having negative feedback, when somewhat constructive (for example, explaining your reasons for concern) should be heard.

    Edit: on second thought, as I like players in DM factions, I agree with Olouth at least in so far that it would not be the worst thing to make them easier to get in - though right now it's up in the air if v6 will even have DM factions the way we understand the term.



  • I do not like it on subraces, they should be kept rare. Otherwise, every cleric and paladin will be an aasimar, because there is no downside to it. I do like it for DM Factions however.
    Also, ID LOVE IT for lycanthrope apps, if you get bitten. I personally do not think it should require an app to be allowed to be bitten.

    IMO, to limit dm dependency:

    • DM Factions. Every PC can promote people to one level BELOW his rank. So a Militia Lieutenant could hire Privates, and promote to sergeant. Should not require a dm.
    • Lycanthrope apps for folks being bitten should be removed.

    But other subraces should require a dm app.



  • So the common point here would be the following changes to what was proposed could be:

    the App System is ONLY used for ON CREATION REQUESTS such as:

    • Nobility;
    • Special background or power that requires scripting;
    • Starting off with a faction base, higher faction rank or perk;
    • All Scripted Subraces

    All initial ranks of all factions become appless.


    Everything else, that would fit into EiG (PRCs, nobility, perks, pacts, etc) needs to follow the standart app system, promotions however can be done by higher ranking PCs.

    Is that it?



  • Isn't that basically what happens already?



  • No idea, buddy. Is it @dms ?


  • Admin [DM]

    Eh, basically? Blade and Private are appless



  • Alright then, I'm still not satisfied with it, but if I'm the only one that thinks the app system is flawed as is, I don't see any chance of change happening - so I won't sweat over it.



  • Gumba, I definitely agree that there should be a more liberal solution. Privates and blades being appless, is not very much IMO.


  • Admin [DM]

    The APP system is totally flawed 🙂 I fully agree! But personally I feel the very writing of it needs to be smoother, cause forum posts are a bit clunky as it is



  • Perhaps group stuff into tiers?
    First tier
    Requires no application, just a free DM / higher ranking PC / approved Lycan (infecting others).

    • Militia Private
    • Blade
    • Genasi
    • Warforged
    • Lycan (weaker ones)

    Second tier
    Requires one DM Vote for yes, and no "No"'s for 24 hour confirmation period. Most EIG should fall into this category

    • Rank advancement in DM Faction (provided there are IG recommendations)
    • Most PRCs (Blackguard, Shadowdancer, RDD, shifter being exceptions)
    • Knighthood by PC
    • Lycanthrope on creation
    • Most background concepts
    • Aasimar, Tiefling, Cansin and similar subraces (since they have no negatives, Id argue they are better than the genasi)
    • Official Church apps

    Third tier concepts
    Requires a regular application.

    • Nobility
    • Major Perk applications
    • The strongest subraces
    • The prime PRCs


  • I don't know if it even needs to be an application (as per the template) per say for stuff like PrCs - asking the question of if you've done enough should suffice, and stuff like advancing in DM factions should be a case of the DM coming to you and saying "you've earned it, crack on"

    I think all subraces should have an application, though! It would be a shame if you can just log in and rock up a tiefling. Dilutes and awesome and "integrity" (for lack of a better word) of the server IMO.