Modify Shield Spell in v6



  • Proposing we modify this spell as well for v6. Its a level one spell that grants :

    The caster gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC. The caster is also immune to the spell magic missile for the duration of the shield.

    That's a +40% AC enhancement on average, and immunity to the most powerful level 1 spell.

    Compare to Magic Weapon again:

    +1 enhancement to a weapon.

    The immunity to the spell is great, and probably very useful as it is such a common level 1 spell and does otherwise unblockable damage, but a +2 AC enhancement is still making this spell twice as useful as magic weapon and not more powerful than Barkskin and its +3 enhancement.

    Its also possibly that it should level like Barkskin, Shield can give an additional +1 at levels 6-12 and +2 more (full power then) at level 13 to 17.


  • Builder's Guild

    If you want to balance it with other level one spells in mind, I propose matching it with shield of faith.

    ''The target gains a +2 deflection bonus to their armor class, with an additional +1 bonus for every six levels of the caster (maximum of +5)''



  • This would also mean abjurers casting it would see a much greater return on their spell focus investment. I approve.



  • Just so long as the monsters are balanced for the drop in AC.



  • AB tends to outscale AC and shield hardly makes up for that, as we level up we get +1 ab per level on full BAB but AC is hard to get as you almost always have to itemize for it; in that way magic weapon is balanced.

    The Shield spell is still not that great anyway, it lasts 5 minutes when you use it from a consumable, it really doesnt give you +4 ac since every melee person is probably wearing an item with +deflection already, and it does not stack with mindward ac bonus of +2 vs alignment.

    If anything, shield should get a small buff for people with SF Abj, GSF Abj of +5/+6 accordingly.



  • @voss_ said in Modify Shield Spell:

    If you want to balance it with other level one spells in mind, I propose matching it with shield of faith.

    ''The target gains a +2 deflection bonus to their armor class, with an additional +1 bonus for every six levels of the caster (maximum of +5)''

    This is a good point, but I'd still max the AC at 4 because you get immunity to the magic missiles. It also keep a bit of flavor difference between the two spells.

    @Thune monsters are balanced for the drop in AC; what they're not balanced for is this spell.
    @SmilingDog the spell clearly does not need a buff when it clearly outperforms similarly leveled spells actually. So your point is not convincing at all to me. I'd be all for letting someone with SF Abj, GSF Abj counting their level as 1/2 higher when they cast this spell -or- even gaining +1/+2 to the AC when they cast it. I like that idea actually since these are not often used feats.



  • Having played a front liner for a fair amount of time now, I flat out refuse to believe that shield is game breaking. Monsters tear people apart with less than optimal ac from Frin's on up. . . .if you're not barked and shielded, you're going to spend a damned fortune on healing or other must-have consumables.

    Reducing the effectiveness of the spell is only going to ensure people have a harder time holding on to hard earned XP. The 'balance' against high ac was more crits handed out by the monsters. Yes, we're stuck with the tail end of the power curve by now, but de-escalating it on the player's end isn't going to help anyone fighting a 4 APR +24 AB mob and it's going to lead to more people getting disillusioned and quitting.



  • @thetwistingwind

    You're confusing a 5% increased hit chance with "optimal ac" and the response I already gave to Thune, which is that no monster on CoA was built with the plan that players would always have +4 deflection AC from a cheap potion or level 1 spell from level 1-11. Though, we did design monsters to have the AB to deal with +3 and +4 AC from deflection sources like Shield of Faith by around CR 12. So again, the argument you make actually is not supported by numbers even though I do hear the perception you hold.

    Mobs right now may sometimes have +24 AB because some (very haphazard) adjusting was done to try to DEAL with this spell being used so often in its potion form on quests that its entirely thrown off the game design of most quests and monsters.

    In v6, we can much BETTER balance things when this spell is modified as I'm suggesting here actually. So if anything, what you're saying is actually convincing me even more than this is a good idea for v6.



  • IMO, i would just remove the spell from potion and wand form. +4 AC is acceptable on a wizard, it is when it is cast on a frontliner it becomes game breaking.



  • @o-louth said in Modify Shield Spell:

    IMO, i would just remove the spell from potion and wand form. +4 AC is acceptable on a wizard, it is when it is cast on a frontliner it becomes game breaking.

    I have no interest in removing options from players.

    This is a change I'm proposing for v6, just to stress this folks. It won't affect you now at all, and v6 will have an entirely rebuilt monster palette.

    So the whole proposal is to simply modify AC gain from the spell to about 10% on levels 1-6, and about 5% on 7-12, and it'll be back to normal by level 13 where monsters are built for the fact you'll sometimes have +4 deflection because you have access to +4 enchanted armors and weapons sometimes anyway.



  • In that case, I would build it like shield of faith. That spell is rather balanced.



  • I would also suggest we modify Magic Vestments. It's +1 at Lv5, +2 at Lv6, and +3 at Lv9, which does not do well in keeping with the balance of the server, especially when you can apply it twice.



  • @crystalrl

    MV is +1 at lvl 1-7, +2 at lvl 8-11, +3 at lvl 12-15.



  • My suggestion would be to make it do exactly the same as the Shield spell in NWN2:

    +4 shield Magical AC. Doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus on a shield you currently wear.

    OR

    +4 Shield AC. Doesn't stack with a shield you wear. So if you wear a tower shield +1 already for 4 AC, you don't get a bonus, SAME as mage armor.

    I've always found it weird that mage armor doesn't stack with your armor, but that Shield spell stacks with a shield.

    Thoughts?



  • @mind-over-body
    I could not push for this more as a 2h fighter main. Often a 2h fighter isn't as wanted or useful as just a sword and boarder due to their AC and don't do that much more damage to compensate. If this disparity is changed a bit in v6 through use in consumables I will be very happy.



  • Actually. I would make it, so two handed do not get a bonus, if it is to give a shield bonus. Looking at the current selection of frontliners on the server, I can think of 2 out of 15 or so, who uses shield + sword. Everyone else are two handing things. That would tell me that a two handed warrior does not need more help, due to much higher damage.



  • 2 handers with certain weapons are often preferable to sword and board though. Killing stuff before it damages you too much is a lot more efficient than wearing it down.

    The guy with TS + improved expertise doesn't need a shield potion (I know, because I played one within the last month, saved 10k gold by not having to use shield + barkskin often).

    However, if shield AC comes with the other changes moloch mentioned 2 AC + 1 / X levels then it's something to consider.



  • Honestly, 2-4 ac would put it on par with shield of faith which is fine in my book. You'd have lower A.C. from potions, but still have them. +1/2 deflection items would mean more; Do you want to spend an extra 60 gold for 1-2 ac?


  • Fellowship of the Guantlet

    I don't see any problems with this spell as it is, yes, it is a level 1 counter to a level 1 spell and decent AC boost. If it isn't broken don't fix it imo.


  • Fellowship of the Guantlet

    @polaris said in Modify Shield Spell in v6:

    2 handers with certain weapons are often preferable to sword and board though. Killing stuff before it damages you too much is a lot more efficient than wearing it down.

    The guy with TS + improved expertise doesn't need a shield potion (I know, because I played one within the last month, saved 10k gold by not having to use shield + barkskin often).

    However, if shield AC comes with the other changes moloch mentioned 2 AC + 1 / X levels then it's something to consider.

    That's true if you're looking to coast on quests, but when you're the one pulling the wagon (so to speak), having the ability to up your ac AND damage is nothing short of crucial.