Being Inclusive and Arabel



  • Hello peeps. Here's a feast for the peanut gallery.

    Lately, with two of my previous characters, I've noticed a strong pattern, where a specific number of individuals find a need to quest in smallest parties possible, or don't want their "rivals" partaking in said quests, scripted or DM, excluding them from the possibility of any interaction. I've also found myself intrigued by DM shouts to a specific place, only to be turned around as we're told it's a private DM event for a specific number of people. Or, found myself to a DM event, where upon an attempt to interact, found my character blasted to smithereens by a DM and therefore, unintentionally or not, forced to become more a bystander than part of the event.

    The reason this has irked me, is that I've personally always favored the idea of every possible interaction with other characters, be it in DM/scripted quests or outside, friend or foe. "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer", is a mindset that I feel has always welcomed a good amount of healthy conflict and bitter rivalries between characters, where as I feel excluding them from your presence, never really leads to anything.

    So, a couple of questions to address here:
    Do you think it's not against OOC courtesy to be exclusive in DM/Scripted quest parties of todays CoA?

    Should we be more inclusive in our playstyle than we currently are? Or is it just fine as it is?

    Is ignoring or avoiding interaction with other characters part of a healthy PvP, and therefore good for the server?

    And if your character doesn't want interaction with the character, should you be OOCly exclusive as well?

    And lastly- I don't see anyone else "ranting and raving" like me, so I'm wondering if I'm alone with this problem and should just stick my head in a toilet to cool down and just go with the current of Todays Arabel?



  • I've found that some people are very good at keeping plots between themselves and their friends, yes.

    It would be nice if people IC "let slip" that stuff was going on a little more rather than just existing to get from the start to the end of a DM plot. That's a nice OOC way of being more inclusive, even if it's not IC for your character.

    I don't rant and rave because it never changes anything 😉



  • Several players have noticed cliques. The DMs do support keeping people out of questing parties if you're rivals/threats to them. Otherwise, they would rule that people can't do shit relevant to plots on quests - and it's not unknown for people to drain a corpse.

    As per yesterday's event…they did allow non-dwarves to talk. Your PC was just rude, and the NPC in question has a temper. You had received clues about that from both PCs and NPCs - your character simply didn't have the wisdom to heed them.

    Part of the reason I hide stuff is because I might already have things in the works for certain PCs that are intrigue-based, and I might not want them to know that I know something. Other times, I will taunt PCs with knowledge, just to rustle their jimmies 😛



  • I tend to spew out all the plots I know to many many groups. I hate cliques, I've never been in one, and I'm usually on the outside looking in. If you note my letters and in game behavior, I reach out to new players and new characters ALL the time. Just today, I dropped a ton of plots on a brand new PC running errands, just because I greeted her and found she was a Chauntean.



  • What you have brought up are several different issues all wrapped into one:

    specific number of individuals find a need to quest in smallest parties possible

    Always has happened, now sometimes this is because they are a small tight knit group with fear of outsiders for IC reasons, at times this is because the quest becomes super hard beyond minimum numbers without suitable reward (these quests should be reported to dms), sometimes it's part of the xp train that people want to take thinking that is what is needed to become noticeable enough.

    don't want their "rivals" partaking in said quests, scripted or DM, excluding them from the possibility of any interaction

    People should understand and realise there can be different levels of rivalry and with a smaller number of people on the server it can be harder to partake in quests if sidelined. That said, if you character has genuine concerns you would keep them away. Other rivals you might want to invite along and find out their motivations, areas you can work with them or use it as a way to convince them of your side.

    intrigued by DM shouts to a specific place, only to be turned around as we're told it's a private DM event for a specific number of People.

    Some events are hosted by a DM for a limited number of people arranged before hand at a specific time and a shout is most effective way to communicate the start whilst at the same time dropping a hint to the server that something is going on. Allows you to plot and intrigue yourself and if it's multi part you can maybe reach out to the DM and see if you can assist the plotline by acting as an IC foil or counter part if it make IG sense.

    found myself to a DM event, where upon an attempt to interact, found my character blasted to smithereens by a DM

    npcs have different personalities and might have strong views against certain types of interactions, insulting a war wizard could see you thrown in the pit without a chance to pay a fine just because the war wizard was grumpy that day. Another npc run by the same DM might shower you with praise and rewards. This is generally treat what happened IC as IC.

    Is ignoring or avoiding interaction with other characters part of a healthy PvP, and therefore good for the server?

    What should be done is what makes sense Icly, being evil doesn't mean you are instantly wrong, having opposing views doesn't mean you can't cooperate on other things, not interacting at all and shunning is boring for all parties.

    I have a tendency to share out plot details to most people, finding ways to let slip details if need be, unless that plot line is something critical and there are already sufficient bodies involved.



  • On the topic of scripted quests, there are a number of reasons I like smaller groups, (ideally 5-6 max), the chief of which is that I have dyslexia and cannot type very quickly or follow the flow of conversation in large groups making them things I need to experience silently and as a result make me want to avoid. Other reasons are

    1. The rp in smaller groups is in my experience of higher quality. There is less rushing, more focus on tactics and interaction instead of just steamrolling into the next spawn. More chance to get to know the characters that are involved. Even when questing with a core of ic allies, I try to bring along one or two others that I have not interacted with before (or want to interact with again). A smaller quest group makes this kind of rp more feasible and interesting. As an example I have done castle assault twice over the period of a few days. Once with a large group that was a mess with rushing, lack of communication and in general a frustrating affair. I was unable to properly rp with a character I invited along and wanted to get to know better. Contrast this with a smaller group yesterday that led to very fun rp, people taking their time instead of rushing, and a potential ally/friend for my character forming.

    2. Once you get past the easier low/mid level quests the challenge goes up quite a bit, Add to this several characters your character cannot trust to pull their weight, or not dramatically increase the difficulty and whole party is put at risk. Tens of thousands of lost xp later I no longer do harder quests without ic knowledge that my character can trust most if not all the people he brings along to be an asset.

    3. As a player you are rewarded more by taking a smaller party. Alone this would not be an issue but when you add to this the previously mentioned rushing on quests, inability for me to properly rp, increased challenge. and decreased personal enjoyment, its a kick in the teeth that I suffer lower rewards as a "reward" for this on top of everything else.

    As for dm plots/events, if its an open event then sure, everyone is welcome as the name implies. But I don't see why I would push plots with rivals or enemies of my character. For one my character does not trust them, and second what they are doing is often directly against the interest of said characters. However if interests align, and some kind of ic trust can be established then sure, I have no problem with taking ic enemies on dm events. What I most often do is make sure that I share the plot information I have with others, speaking about stuff maybe a little too openly in the spire, or on quests so that ithe plots spread among the server, giving others the chance to gather their own allies and pursue those plots.

    At the end of the day though, my thought on most if all of those questions if "If it makes sense IC, and is not in violation of server rules then yes its okay." A healthy degree of ooc courtesy is needed for any kind of cooperative story telling, but so too is immersion and consistency of IC actions.



  • Ive had this issue before. Including some OOC tells etc. About letting people "in". I'm not bothered. I'm an adult. The idea that secrecy IG is the same as secrecy IRL baffles me. This is where we go to escape RL not emulate it. Just leave clues and let things happen. EDIT: scripted quests are places where little to know plotting happens. Exclusion should be determined by level of revulsion to the excluded character.



  • I also echo bird of preys points in scripted quests.

    I believe there is a slight issue with scripted quests on the whole that the difficulty ramps up more dramatically with more than the rewards, I think this is a long standing problem. Rewards should definitely match the difficulty.



  • I agree with Blacksheep and Solarfall.

    Im not that bothered as I think the political plots are kind of trash when there are so few players,even worse they are always between the same players,when we had 200 players these were great now it's the same people,pretty much doing the same things in the same way,all that changes is the characters name.
    But it's what they enjoy so fine but being exclusive about it shouldn't be rewarded IMO.

    As to the rest yes as a casual player getting involved with the cliques is like having teeth pulled,pretty much the reason why i am a casual player and spend more time on different servers and different games.

    The scripted quest issue some players are scared of is bollocks scripted quests are easy you get a few more spawns when the numbers are higher if your scared of your character dying then you should never go to a single DM event.

    Peace out.



  • I will not address your specific questions, because they are cery biased and worded in a way that any answer would be easily misconstrued.

    @SithSpawn:

    I also echo bird of preys points in scripted quests.

    I believe there is a slight issue with scripted quests on the whole that the difficulty ramps up more dramatically with more than the rewards, I think this is a long standing problem. Rewards should definitely match the difficulty.

    In my experience, the rewards DO ramp up with the number of people. OPINION WARNING: The issue tends to be that as the number of people increases, cohesian decreases, ending in more expendature by all involved. Thus, it may appear like you're not getting the same bang for your buck.

    With that said… with smaller quest groups, while you may find fewer items / gear, you tend to get more per a person with less people, simple due to the fact that there are a minimum number of loot nodes (chests, barrels, etc).

    Anyway, about being inclusive.

    No. if your character is a known theif, spy, murderer, necromancer, or other form of villian, i will not quest with you ever (outside of ooc tests) as a lg paladin. Sorry, not happening. Treat this as a sign of respect for your character and his or her reputation. For example, after cursing a halfling to wither and rot into undeath and being sentenced accordingly, some people have chosen to not quest with my character. AWESOME! That means someone cares enough to potentially NOT get gold, quests, etc. purely based upon in character actions. The same should apply to ryn. If you are well known as a theif or otherwise, congradulations. Either you are really good, ir really bad. Revel in it.

    The same is concerned with dm events, except for one facet. I always do, and always attempt to, share info about my plot, regardless of if it can have major negative consequenses for my character. In this sense, I believe being inclusive ia allowing other players to take actions either by allying with me in my often nefarious schemes, OR working against me. If you wish to do neither, do not expect me to go out of my way to break ic to involve you.

    Yes, i realize how much this idea sucks for hardcore evil villians. You will never have 12 person questing parties as a blight druid, infernalist, or animator. But... the server is designed to handle this. You have access to one of the most powerful factions and abilites - the Chaos Brigade. DM's take into consideration how much life might suck, or how hard the mechanica might be.

    That difficulty is part of the price for having really cool abilities, factions, etc.

    Tl;Dr : Stay in character. If you are a villian, roll with it! If you want to be a part of everyones plots, quests, etc without a strong character... roll a transmuter pyromancer. (Haha)



  • @Fey:

    Tl;Dr : Stay in character. If you are a villian, roll with it! If you want to be a part of everyones plots, quests, etc without a strong character… roll a transmuter pyromancer. (Haha)

    People play villains to make the server fun for everyone, which is the idea of CoA. If there were no bad guys / necromancers / evil bastards the server would be a very boring place and would just be a load of wand crafters and blacksmiths cuddling each other.

    So with that in mind don’t think “I AM A PALADIN, WE CANNOT INTERACT ON ANY QUESTS! AWAY I GO TO WIN THE PLOT!” try and think how you can make it fun for the bad guy who actually gives your PC a reason to be on the server.

    DMs set the scenes, players make it all work. So think outside the box.



  • I will give Thune special praise here because i constantly notice him hooking new people up with plot and stuff. Luckily there's a few others like that.

    Quest wise, i usually take those who want to come, if it's an enemy, it's a good thing to taunt them and try to outperform them, take them along to gauge their skill etc…..

    It's a hard apth to follow. I very much agree with Bird of Prey that it can be messy to take a large group, especially if some are not pulling their weight.



  • Good to see this has generated a healthy discussion.

    Let's keep in mind that the server is much smaller than it used to be, and people don't have hours and hours to spend waiting for the optimal team ebul party to show up. Based on that, I have believed you should never mold your character around the principle of excluding anyone simply because "It makes sense becoz ebulz".

    An LG paladin of Goodie-shoes Justices can take a suspected necromancer along and find out if he's the real thing. He can battle him during this grand quest. He can even bring him along to show him an example on how to behave.

    A priest of a good faith can desire to bash the false apostle, or prove his teachings wrong during a mission or two.

    Rushing is not really based on the size of your party. In fact, I feel smaller parties are easier to rush because they need to worry more about their spells running out (lolz!), than what the guy beside them is saying. In a larger party, you can find peace with a character to talk, even by staying in the back, or talking in another language if everyone else talking with white blocks of text confuzez you.

    Also, you told me about the Dyslexia yesterday Savn, but honestly, my current character doesn't generate that much text (if at all), so I don't see your point seeing as it's based on that example >_> also, I have dyslexia too! Let's be friends ^__^

    KB, what happened yesterday at the dwarven Embassy, was entirely IC and was treated as such on my part. However, other players were involved in it as well, and since they expressed distraught OOC, I had to address the concern by making this thread to better understand the current mentality of the server.

    So, am I reading this right then, is the general opinion that the way inclusion is being handled today is fine as it is? And that OOC exlusion comes hand in hand with IC exclusion, meaning you don't invite someone who, for example, is a known necromancer, into the quest party so he could enter the quest area and cause some havoc?

    I'll prepare that toilet.



  • @TheBlackSheep:

    An LG paladin of Goodie-shoes Justices can take a suspected necromancer along and find out if he's the real thing. He can battle him during this grand quest. He can even bring him along to show him an example on how to behave.

    Actually, they can't. If they suspect someone is evil, they will lose alignment points if they quest with them because if they don't do evil in front of them (and therefore don't provoke a reaction), then they have aided evil. The DMs have made this very clear.



  • Let's keep in mind that the server is much smaller than it used to be, and people don't have hours and hours to spend waiting for the optimal team ebul party to show up. Based on that, I have believed you should never mold your character around the principle of excluding anyone simply because "It makes sense becoz ebulz".

    Let's agree to disagree here. Most 'evil' pc's either start with, or acquire, really really strong perks. I'm talking about level 8-12 animate dead that you can buff, that last permenently, that you can have four of. You don't need an optimal team. You just need bodies.

    An LG paladin of Goodie-shoes Justices can take a suspected necromancer along and find out if he's the real thing. He can battle him during this grand quest. He can even bring him along to show him an example on how to behave.

    No. You literally cannot. Paladins have this thing known as 'Detect Evil'. If you are questing with an evil pc, you risk falling and or losing favor as a paladin. Paladins are supposed to COMBAT evil. It's a clerics job to rehabilitate them. If a paladin were to not have this ability to foster interaction, it would definitely blur the line as far as interaction goes… In fact, I will make a suggestion to this effect. - EDIT : Paladins do not have Detect Evil on COA. Regardless, the point still stands. As a LG paladin, you cannot quest with a clearly evil / Choatic (PC) pc. As a CG paladin, you cannot quest with a clearly Evil / Lawful (?) pc. The same applies for the other corners.

    A priest of a good faith can desire to bash the false apostle, or prove his teachings wrong during a mission or two.

    Completely cool. More conversions!

    Rushing is not really based on the size of your party. In fact, I feel smaller parties are easier to rush because they need to worry more about their spells running out (lolz!), than what the guy beside them is saying. In a larger party, you can find peace with a character to talk, even by staying in the back, or talking in another language if everyone else talking with white blocks of text confuzez you.

    We clearly have had different experiences on quests.

    So, am I reading this right then, is the general opinion that the way inclusion is being handled today is fine as it is? And that OOC exlusion comes hand in hand with IC exclusion, meaning you don't invite someone who, for example, is a known necromancer, into the quest party so he could enter the quest area and cause some havoc?

    This sentence is very complicated, and has a lot of inter-twined ideas. So I'll break it up.

    So, am I reading this right then, is the general opinion that the way inclusion is being handled today is fine as it is?

    From what I have read, generally. There seem to be a few issues with 'cliques', but I am uncertain which you are talking about.

    And that OOC exlusion comes hand in hand with IC exclusion,

    No. It does not. OOCly, players should be cool with eachother and try to involve eachother. This should not interfere with in character though. A quote from solarflare : "You need to think outside the box". If you can't involve someone in quests or whatever, try to involve them in other ways. Leave hints or 'slip up' if you want them involved in your plots. Or, if you want direct interactions, outright challenge them. Duels, pvp, or even just talking to them in neutral areas such as the Spire. In character should not be bent to have ooc inclusion. This is metagaming IMO.

    meaning you don't invite someone who, for example, is a known necromancer, into the quest party so he could enter the quest area and cause some havoc?

    It depends upon the character. If you are a Paladin, not only would not NOT invite the necromancer, but you would do your best to push conflict outside of the quest. This is assuming a LG / CG paladin. A CLERIC on the other hand, may chose to bring along the necromancer and attempt to redeem him. A normal TN Fighter might not give a damn, though expect to acrue evil points as a result. Once again, keep in character, in game.



  • No. You literally cannot. Paladins have this thing known as 'Detect Evil'.

    Was removed years ago.



  • Detect Evil is handled by DMs exclusively. Has been for a number of years.


  • Storyteller [DM]

    If a Paladin suspects someone is evil, they can set up a situation to prove it, nominally, they can do it on the quest.

    It's when the person in question is OBVIOUSLY EVIL

    Skull Helm, Black Robes, Sinister Appearance…yea- the guy is evil.

    Is the person a tiefling- 90% chance of target being EVIL.

    Paladins are the most prejudiced, suspicious class in the game, with druids either being an extremely close second or being equal to them. They have to be. Where some classes find their alignments at risk by their own actions, paladins alignments are at risk by the actions of their party.



  • @SpiffyHas:

    Where some classes find their alignments at risk by their own actions, paladins alignments are at risk by the actions of their party.

    Which is somewhat a silly game design and clearly counteracts being inclusive. You need to break party as a paladin and leave the quest to the others.

    (Btw, quests need an "I'm a paladin, give me some XP even though I have left" option. )



  • I feel like this is summed up pretty easily. If you are excluding someone out of OOC feat of losing, do not do that.

    Someone mentioned a rule once. DON'T BE A DICK.


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