2010 Hak Debate
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This was discussed off and on in #coa earlier, some context:
Note: Edited to focus on the debate, probably missed some lines in progress.
[21:22] <moloch_>I so want to add a hak to Arabel, just for all the creatures we could add.
[21:24] <moloch_>http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=17279
[21:24] <moloch_>Abyssal Tendrils people.
[21:24] why not add one moloch?
[21:25] <moloch_>Because the worry is that a hak would reduce new players coming to Arabel and drive some old ones away.
[21:28] <moloch_>http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=59067
[21:28] <moloch_>Twig Blights….
[21:31] That was an argument for anti-CEP/PRC and not at most a 5-10MB hak packaged, I was under the belief.
[21:31] <moloch_>Some DMs still use the argument.
[21:31] <moloch_>I'm not convinced we'd lose enough players new or old at this rate.
[21:32] <moloch_>NWN is so old, who hasn't downloaded a hak?
[21:32] Precisely.
[21:32] Considering a large amount of current/old players download overrides and haks to make their experience on Arabel better visually anyway.
[21:33] I'd download a hak, or CEP or whatever. I dont care.
[21:33] * Maureen is now known as Maureen|bed
[21:33] <maureen|bed>but now, I sleep
[21:33] <moloch_>Quite a few DMs are leaning that way, but we still have enough worries about losing players.
[21:34] As long as CEP isn't implemented, I don't think there'd be enough of a loss imo.
[21:34] There's quite a few high count (45+ constant) servers that -do- use haks, so clearly there's precedent.
[21:35] <moloch_>Myself, I just want monsters and tilesets so I can tell some new stories about things and places people haven't been.
[21:35] <moloch_>And maybe airships…
[21:35] This is not City of Final Fantasy, you stop that train of thought now, SIR!
[21:35] <moloch_>Fuck that!
[21:35] <moloch_>I have a FF summons theme I did.
[21:35] <moloch_>I never finished it though, or it would be on the Vault.
[21:36] Not many people play NWN
[21:36] Get some haks.
[21:36] I knew I should've gone for the Mystara reference.
[21:36] Damn it.
[21:37] If that theme doesn't have Bahamut as the level 9 summon, you can just forget it tbh.
[21:37] <moloch_>It does.
[21:38] Back to work.
[21:44] <@Seth|Vegas> the airship hak was a bit ucmbersome I found
[21:46] <jess|wow>I'd think that 99% of most people now have already downloaded a hak in some form or another
[22:11] what are these haks you speak of?
[22:11] yes
[22:11] Nope
[22:11] aside from those
[22:11] >>
[22:11] <<
[22:12] well if it involves corpse humping, i'm in
[22:12] Yeah, I have a ton of haks too
[22:12] heads tiles placeables haks
[22:12] The NWN community is not growing anymore, and the places that it is? They use haks, because we want more customizable content
[22:13] people should let the game die then.
[22:13] not true we have had alot of noobs of late
[22:13] just got diamond and such
[22:13] haks, for the most part, don't really guarantee any improvement in play.
[22:13] but they do restrict more player access.
[22:13] TRIXIE
[22:13] true most are eye candy
[22:13] raimo!
[22:14] but i do like more heads
[22:14] and not many folks use dialup anymore
[22:14] which was one reason for no haks years ago
[22:14] i just like the idea of a server you can hop right into the game with.
[22:14] least that was one given
[22:14] that said, i don't play anymore.
[22:15] so my opinion matters little.
[22:15] i have noticed though
[22:15] that alot of haks have been made into server side
[22:15] where you dont have to dl them
[22:15] Tricksy, if that were the case, you'd be able to hop right in, after install, but wait…
[22:15] Tons of patches</jess|wow></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></maureen|bed></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_></moloch_>From what I've gathered, it's like this:
Pro-Hak: More customization, more stories unlocking (due to better representation of areas and/or creatures/NPCs) and advances in compression/hak design shooting for a viable package. As well as the observation by Moloch that a large amount of NWN players likely have (or already have) download haks in the past.
Anti-Hak: Drives players away, downloads required, shrinking NWN playerbase (despite efforts of sites like GOG)
My own personal observation is that CoA could go hak ASSUMING the haks employed were within reason. We don't need social haks or unnecessary redundant ones (like 99% of CEP), for example.
When I say I see CoA with haks, I mean something like 5-10MB compressed (which can turn into 100 unpackaged+, I've seen it done before).
Really I think the only way this could be resolved is a poll of forum readers asking whether or not haks would hinder or enhance their experience. I sure as hell wouldn't care about haks if it was, again, within reason.
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My thoughts. Haks do limit the potential for new players to hop right into the fun, a demographic that many of us constitute. That said, as Misan pointed out, NWN's community is hardly growing at this point. In an effort to maintain and prease the CoA player-base, I would be all for a hak. Boom.
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There was a poll last year.
Thing with haks is, I'm pretty sure that everyone currently played on CoA will download it; But if a new guy comes in by chance, and sees the error screen while trying to enter CoA, he might not bother to get the haks.
I know I only popped in here because there were no haks, as I was browsing through all the servers. I just thought I'd see casually what the place was like, the first time. If CoA was using haks at the time, I likely wouldn't have bothered to probe further.
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personally when i have tried to check out other sites..if i need haks..i simply move on
it might be a good way to get rid of me however..load the server up with haks
<.< -
I'm all for it. More content = More entertainment to me.
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Naa, i see no need for it. Its just like the addition of cloaks to the game. Everyone went nuts. But really, did it add anything to the server?
If you need added visuals to make the server interesting, what's the point of even playing? The strength of arabel is its accessibilty for new players and the powerful base game (nwn) which allows us just enough to create a believeable forgotten realms world. Why doesn't arabel move to nwn2? Its because even though the visuals are much better, the base game just doesn't cut it.
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I think the real question is how many "new" players do we have over the last year that actually just joined because there was no haks? If that number (again, over the past year) is 10 or higher, likely the no hak clause should stick. 10 new players a year is a fair tradeoff for making due with what we have now.
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Yes I 'd like new haks.
Yes it will reduce new players considerably.Question is, how many of the rest succesful and still going strong RP servers use them?
If 50% uses them, then adding haks on Coa is a bad idea. People will just start playing on the other well populated servers, and I mean the new players.
If the percentage is something like 80 - 90% of the populated servers, use some form of hak, then I say we go with it. Besides downloading 10-20 MB of material is not the trouble it used to be when we played on CoA with a PSTN connection.
In the end its all about market research and watch how the competition acts on this.
As said before though, I think current players will surely download the hak and play.
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Is it going to make the place that much better, really? I don't play here for graphics or content, I play for the RP. With the new tilesets and improvements to the layout of the place it's like having a HAK anyway
Leave it as is
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The biggest problem for me is lack of creature models to use to represent different sorts of monsters. The lack of good planar creatures really bugs me a lot but also just normal things like giant Ants or Wasps ect. Also a spell pack would rock and new classes too.
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The biggest problem for me is lack of creature models to use to represent different sorts of monsters. The lack of good planar creatures really bugs me a lot but also just normal things like giant Ants or Wasps ect. Also a spell pack would rock and new classes too.
You have to be careful though, if you go that far you'll find yourself going down the PRC path, which is a PITA since they keep updating it.
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Haks
Haks.
Moar Haks.
I want Creatures.
I want PRC's
I want Feats!
Gimme!
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I would not honestly say I'd want more classes or feats in the mod.
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I don't see how a few MBs in exchange for more creatures, spells and stuff is such a big deal in this day and age. Don't go overboard, like what Forte said cause it can get really annoying, but some new stuff to spice up the game world would be great. CoA isn't getting any new players, NWN is getting older and most servers use Haks anyway.
Just update the main site, make everything else abit more accessible and you're right as rain.
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@The:
Haks
Haks.
Moar Haks.
I want Creatures.
I want PRC's
I want Feats!
Gimme!
x2
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I'd download a hak. More creatures/spells/tilesets. Just about anything you think is missing from NWN can be added with haks. Why not make a pole about it to see what most people say about it. You may be suprised by the answer.
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I would download one, to continue playing.
I'd want to know what the Module Builders will use in such a hak. Making the place prettier is nice for us old hands, but things that will benefit role play are key.
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As long as the hak/s is in an all in one download folder on nw vault I'm fine with it.
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Wow. HAKs on COA? "Blasphemer!" you scream.
I say "Nay" to that though. There's so much more to HAK paks than just "things to make the module look pretty." There are whole sets of monsters, and items, and scripts, and goodies, and so on and so forth.
I will say that having been gone for a good chunk of 2010, and coming back this week, that there have been a whole lot of "cosmetic" changes to the server, and my hat is tipped to the builders. You guys have done a lovely job sprucing the place up!
I don't know how many "new" players COA attracts anymore. I think most of the player base is fairly established, and the HAK decision will affect them, and not newcomers.
Lamancha's heading in the right direction. I think the best way for the player base to make a decision on this kind of thing would be to have Moloch and the other PRO-HAK builders to put together a thread with a quick rundown of some meaty examples of what they would be able to add to the server with the HAKs. That would give the community a good base to make a vote on.
just my .02US.
By the way, I miss everybody.
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upside we get more monsters and cool stuff.
downside, we may lose player or new players.if the download and installation of the hak is easy, it might not be as bad. Getting new monsters and the like would be cool indeed. We'd have to make some good publicity for the server to make sure we dont lose to many players or have potentioal new players turn away because of a single download.
