Where is our Character vs. Character direction going?

  • I just must address something. I love pvp. Recently, or maybe not so recently, i am not certain, i've started noticing more and more consumables that are the kind that will win a fight instantly if it lands. I am talking things like, but not limited to: Finger of death, harm scrolls, flesh to stone (multiple items), firebrands, fire- and acidbombs…. (the last 2 i mentioned ot a lesser degree)

    All of these make for nothing but boring pvp encounters. Most of the time, they are -also- obtained mostly (at least most easily) by people who would have the easiest time winning a fight without these encounters, making them doubly unbalancing. This encourages little but uber saves build to avoid these things being used. Now, i just.. i just really have to ask... are these items really adding anything to our server? I feel most of these should be DM given items only. Are we really gaining much by having those items so easily obtained?

    This isn't a bash, i'm genuinely curious about people's opinions on this.

  • It makes players feel cheated out of a PvP encounter and even I have grown tired of them and I'm normally the one finding them. It's more fun to make it an interactive battle where others feel like they have a chance at winning, as opposed to just crushing everyone with ease. I've had characters do it in the past and even retired characters because of their consumable meta power. You could say maybe I just shouldn't use them, but when the other people you're going up against have similar or the same items, it's not really a chance your character probably wants to take.

  • I agree with this. I mean it's kinda bad when DM's have started giving out Stone to Flesh gems as DM rewards 😛

  • Amateurs. Clearly the 20 line paragraph and doubled hasted empowered lightning bolt while the person is still reading the chat is superior to all other gank.

  • 'Easily obtainable'

    That's the problem. We had this conversation over in the Beholder buff thread ( 🙂 )

    Finger of death items, so far as I know, are only found on high level quests (should be HARD) and potentially by killing VERY HARD COULD KILL YOU monsters.

    We have implemented nice items dropping on VERY HARD monsters, because many people have previously said things like

    'There is not enough reward from killing these nasty things that could kill me, I need incentive to explore these dangerous places, the underdark doesn't have anything good in it despite being super hard'

    So, the idea is to make fighting tough stuff 'worth it'

    Feel 100% free to suggest cool items that would make fighting various nasty creatures 'worth it' while not being unbalanced, it would be VERY helpful to have such a list, as we would likely slowly implement the drops to various monsters.

    In a lot of cases, we are trying to move away slightly from you finding items in treasure chests, and putting most of the good stuff on monsters themselves, to stop 'ninja looting with no risk' from being available (though we do respect rogues use stealth, and it's a skill, so we don't want to totally stop the sneak thief type)

    So, sure, some items might be really powerful. But lets think about how they are obtained.

    Maybe we could make a list of 'off limits' spell effects, things we don't want available to PCs without a DM specifically granting it as a reward.

    Personally, I don't think that any spells a caster can use within our level range, will apply to that, because items have low DCs, and casters can cast them much higher, so, we would have to stop them using those spells as well for that to make sense, but we can certainly discuss that as well.

  • I am really not the DM to weigh in on this. As I typically dislike most Player vs Player combat/mechanical interactions. There are so much more interesting things people can be doing on the server than stocking up potions and items to gank each other.

    As far as nasty one shot items go? This is only talk - and by no means cleared or vetted by the rest of the team. But save stuff like that for if a DM is near? Suck it up and accept in a magical world, you may not know what magical badassery the next guy has? Find a different way to attack your foes, than physical conflict? Go after what they care about if you are not willing to accept they may suddenly and violently kick your ass with a bauble?

    Since I've been back in the DM seat, and it hasn't been too long, I've seen some eye rollingly unsporting examples of PvP. And maybe I'm a simple old man, but honestly, the more grey area DM's leave for PVP to be overseen with out DM's the more conversations like this will happen.

    It's a hitch, for sure. Less DM oversight, more complaints about the way other people PvP, More DM oversight the more complaints about player freedom.


  • yeah, in an ideal world, we'd have a DM for every battle. Doesn't work like that though, and disabling PVP without a DM at all times would make for some seriously restricting play.

  • Would make sense to require DM oversight at least for FD PVP.
    These do not happen often anyway and are significant enough to be taken seriously by all parties.

  • Getting oneshotted in any situation is very bad for the narrative in my oppinion, wether it is by monsters or by PCs. Perhaps if the mechanically savvy people got together and suggested non-oneshot-instawin alternatives for each item it would help the DM staff adress the issue?

  • Well the trouble is the DM team have increased the item magic level while keeping the character level the same which of course unbalances things in favor of those that spam quests to grab to op magic items for the win in pvp.
    high magic vs low level = items are king.
    low magic vs low level =builds are king
    low magic vs high level =wizards rule.

    We had low magic low level for years with a few items like attuned gems there to give an edge to some encounters but those edges were expensive and demanded others helped out.
    Now all you do is run through scripted quests and your all set without needing to find someone that has focused in a certain skill set and having to spend all your riches on them.

    I don't mind the new setting so much it make questing a shit load easier I hardly have to concentrate any more but it has broken PvP which is a shame.

  • I don't think loot from quests or random Underdark monsters should be better than most DM loot, which I feel is the place we're in right now. I know the DM team is trying to match rewards to the power level of certain quests and monsters, but I feel like the scaling is a bit off in that regard. People can become unreasonably powerful through that stuff, to the point where anyone who doesn't have the capability of reaching that point feels like fighting them is pretty pointless, so they just won't. I'm just curious how the high power ceiling respected through itemization was established, as compared to a year or two ago

  • Well KiY, the thing I have learned in my time on this server is there are various different playstyles amongst our community, all of which our players should be respected for. Conflict is the most interesting thing about CoA and with conflict generally comes PvP. There are plenty of people who love PvP and plenty who don't. But while you might think there's more fun to be had, I might think PvP and the RP associated with it is the best thing about CoA.

    If you want to fix the consumable meta it's pretty simple, just make cool and flavourful gear as opposed to OP consumables. It's never a single piece of gear that wins you PvP in one round. Even a moderate CL use/day item would be more practical. I'd be happy to make some suggestions.

  • Just make the over-powered stuff all really heavy. Here, have this rock that gives you Finger of Death 10/day; it only weighs 100lbs!

  • Only the handful of players who can PvP effectively actively seek out these powerful items for PvP and win.

    Those who don't PvP don't care for such things and lose/avoid PvP.

    Players just need some self control and common sense not to end someone's story with an insta-win item.

  • Well you can't end someones story anyway, as they can respawn/get raised.

    But yes, people do need to think about how they can use their knowledge of mechanics and skill to keep people having fun. If you are essentially in control of the situation, you can use that to your story telling advantage. You can also give people a 'win' without actually being defeated if you are creative about it, thus, making people not hate seeing you because you just stomp all over their face every time you meet them.

    I have been in control of a pvp conflict in the past, and when I was shot by a spell, I fled, cursing them with a limp, and leaving behind a clue for them to follow to fight against me without using PVP.

    It might all sound very counter productive to 'let the other win' or 'let the enemy know your plan' but actually, it makes things a lot more fun for you, because it's not a cake walk anymore, it makes it more fun for the enemy, and they may actually bother with you in the future

    Also, if DMs see people trying to contact a celestial to help them with the uber demon your trying to summon, or forge the hammer of slime smashing to stop the blob of doom your creating, or travel to another plane to get the alternate elemental power to your talassans ritual of destruction, then the DMs are going to see that your driving a story that's fun and involving for you, your team, AND your enemies.

  • I'm not really addressing any of that, but I tend to just avoid PvP against certain players as I have a pretty good understand of who is/isn't cool with it in the community, which I'm fine with. Me and CB could go at it for hours, but others I will just find another way to make it fun.

    I think we're getting off topic here though. This post is about removing these OP consumables. The players who actually DO get them want them removed and the players who don't so much want them removed don't usually end up with them and usually end up as the one's soured when they get owned by them.

  • Then Lets get suggestions for loot drops for various 'hard' and 'very hard' enemies. And suggestions on which spell effects are 'too op' to be dropped by anything ever.

    The team may not implement -everything- but we will definitely take the communities ideas into account.

  • I'll start up a suggestions post when I get a minute.

  • While some of these items are probably not as much fun for a 1v1 or 2v2 fight… I have found they're quite useful if say you're a lone exile being attacked by a majority of the server. In a 10v1/ 10v2 fight it allows you to even the odds out a bit.

  • I'll pitch in once Dobby starts his suggestion thread. I'm not bashing on the team, all i am saying is that i am one of the players who usually will be getting my hands on the items i dislike. Finger of death btw takes a 13th level wizard to cast, stone to flesh takes a level 11, harm takes level 11. All of these add up to some nasty saves. I also don't use them much because i find them boring, but i DO have the option. You do need to juice your saves up pretty high if you don't want to be taken out in one round by a couple of DC20 items. Then ones getting those one shot items are usually the ones who need them least. Greater spell breach for example, from beholders, is a much better item as it is strong, yet it will not win you a fight without giving the other guy a chance to flee.

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