Server Less Inclusive and More Static Than Ever
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roll 'em up, log 'em in, roll 'em out.
have whatever fun you can.if you don't have fun …well there's an old 12 step saying a friend of mine used to quote all the time.
"when you point a finger at someone else, look at your hand, 'cause three fingers are pointing back at you." yeah,if you are not having fun you are probably part of the problem ;-)
What are -you- doing that's making it not fun?
For me, I finally realized that I am -not- a plot pusher. I probably never will be. I do more reacting than taking action, due in no small part to my lack of mechanical savvy. Not to mention I seem to have a real lack of patience when it comes to solving riddles and puzzles.
I personally love to quest with the folks I've come to like. I prefer to quest when there is a bit of RP in the quest-- even if its just reacting for the hundred thousandth time to finding heydi chewed up in the crypts. I dislike steamrolling the quests, and so I don't see myself ever getting much beyond level 5 to 7. So?If you are a spiremancer, who gives a crap? That is how you play, have fun with that.
If you thrive on figuring out the puzzles the dms put out there, good for you, do so and have fun.
If all you want to do is be the bad guy and PvP others because you think it is fun, have fun with the people who are of the same mind set. I can avoid you if I have too unless I'm playing a PC who wouldn't.To echo a DM-- use the player plot forums if you have an idea or a story you want to push. I use it,
I have no freaking clue how to get people interested in -my- story so i rarely get anything done , but I do join in with others, and I have fun that way. Part of that is that -everyone- has there own story they want to push, and thats fine, I can be supporting cast for you all.
I don't like conflict for conflicts sake---at least with PC's. it is the quickest way to see me turn and walk away from a situation, or have something come up so I have to log. Well, this has turned into more of a rant than I was expecting. it must be bed time.
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I think if an effort was made to limit the talk about game mechanics and questing on IRC it might help a bit; folks spent a lot more time discussing their characters and such than they ever do now which I think has contributed to the MMO mentality than we might want to admit. I noticed this shift during v4, I can't put my finger on when but even though it was subtle I think represented a blow to CoA as an RP server. If you want to end MMO culture on CoA than a basic step would be to make it clear that certain practices are unacceptable. IRC used to be a lot more regulated in this respect, talking about quest trains like it ain't no thing was something that wasn't acceptable until relatively recently. If players percieve the standards are low than they will have no reason to improve.
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I think if an effort was made to limit the talk about game mechanics and questing on IRC it might help a bit; folks spent a lot more time discussing their characters and such than they ever do now which I think has contributed to the MMO mentality than we might want to admit. I noticed this shift during v4, I can't put my finger on when but even though it was subtle I think represented a blow to CoA as an RP server. If you want to end MMO culture on CoA than a basic step would be to make it clear that certain practices are unacceptable. IRC used to be a lot more regulated in this respect, talking about quest trains like it ain't no thing was something that wasn't acceptable until relatively recently. If players percieve the standards are low than they will have no reason to improve.
I agree with this.
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There was a time when it was taboo to talk about a quest train, where DM's were likely to discourage any fast leveling. Hell, all the DM factions had a level recomendation of under 5. Level 9 and above characters were seen as heroes and now there are people that get there in a weekend. The push into a higher magic server might have something to do with this, being as it almost seems like you HAVE to be level 8-9 with loot to contend in the high PvP push lately. I accomplished more with my level 3-7 rogue in V4 than I think I could ever accomplish with a level 7 anything lately. It seems very hard to get anything done in a higher magic server than it did in previous versions when some of the plots literally come down to who can win at PvP. (Case in point, crime related plots are pretty much unsolvable without a PvP powerhouse on your side lately, trust me… many people have tried other angles, and got wasted in 10 to 1 PvP)
I remember when you weren't gimped just because you didn't have a +1 weapon. Hell... the best DM loot I saw back in the day was a +1 weapon with some bonus stuff attached and now EVERYTHING is +1 or useless in any quests above level 7. There used to be a stigma against leveling too fast or not starting your story before level 5. Now its almost hard TO start a story before level 5. Not impossibly mind you, but not really survivable when everyone is already in the big leagues when you create a character.
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I really do miss CoA's low magic days; it made the server unique and standout from a lot of the NwN Pws at the time. Going more mainstream as it were hurt this server more than anything else I think.
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Yes, I remember the lovely days where we had a DM who seriously considered all starting gear should start out as "rusty" with a -1 enhancement. I still hear you can play a masochist on Kinky Kingdom though. ;)
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Moloch wins this thread. +1
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My biggest problem lately keeping me from being able to enjoy CoA is the constant forum rants/complaints about what is so wrong, as opposed to just being IG, enjoying what's available to us, and rolling with the punches.
I needed this framed
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If you do not wish to participate in this discussion, nobody is forcing you to. For those that see problems and want to do something about it, this is important to us. Please do not denigrate the efforts of others simply because you do not agree with what they are doing or have different opinions.
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The discussion is really important to everyone Thune, just not in the negative way many are presenting it. I don't see anything on the server that I think needs to change, except for all the negative mindsets. If you think the server is in a rut, I'd say suggest concrete ways to fix it without pointing fingers and indicting people of wrongdoing and failure. The accusations only serve as distractions, and they don't really serve any purpose beyond 'I'm right you're wrong.' A lot of these feelings within the community have been building up over time, but the negativity in the air lately has done no one any favors. I just want to play.
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The problem with many 'complaints' is that, many of them contradict each other, if not immediately, then soon after.
Death should mean more
Death takes too much time to recover from.Player factions need more power
We need guidance from NPCsQuests dont reward well enough
Quests are too easy/There is too much good loot now.People don't get rewarded enough
DM loot is too powerfulWe need an overarching plotline
The plotline gets in the way of players creativity.Every monster should drop something useful.
People have too many consumables.The server is too static, players cant affect things.
People shouldn't be able to illegalise my race/crafted item, it makes it hard to play. Players are too powerful.Being in a jail cell is boring.
The pit sucks and loses you XP.etc.
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Death should mean something, it is always better to err on the side of being heavy handed. There will always be people who complain about it being 'to hard'- largely because they are mechanically incompetent (doesn't mean they are bad RPers). If they are desperate enough, they can app to be like, perma level 7 or something.
DM factions should always be more powerful than PC factions. Why? Something that is permanent exudes more influence than some transient faction that generally vanishes after a month or two. NPC guidance in regards to DM plots and possibly advise is all that is needed.
Quests should reward in equivalence to their effort, plus some, with the possibility of getting roflstomped.
DM loot should be OP. I'd rather see more DM loot than none. Largely because this is tangible recognition you did great things for the server.
Plotlines should take precedence. This is a story, not a sandbox.
Not every monster should drop something relevant. They are monsters- dime a dozen. Tough mobs ought to drop something /possibly/ useful. Adventuring is like gambling, you win some, you loose some.
Players should damn well be able to make your werewolf/fey-ri/drow/duergar hard to play. Burn the subraces and make them flee in terror.
Pit Rocks. However, an optional jail cell for players who request it OOCly should be permitted, I suppose. Dying /does/ suck.
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The problem with many 'complaints' is that, many of them contradict each other, if not immediately, then soon after.
Death should mean more
Death takes too much time to recover from.Player factions need more power
We need guidance from NPCsQuests dont reward well enough
Quests are too easy/There is too much good loot now.People don't get rewarded enough
DM loot is too powerfulWe need an overarching plotline
The plotline gets in the way of players creativity.Every monster should drop something useful.
People have too many consumables.The server is too static, players cant affect things.
People shouldn't be able to illegalise my race/crafted item, it makes it hard to play. Players are too powerful.Being in a jail cell is boring.
The pit sucks and loses you XP.etc.
This. All of this.
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"PvP " death does, in general, mean something. Else I'd have respawned Will by now.
I know that I could, by the rules, have respawned Merry (and his story wasn't done imho,)
But I did not know that when I white lighted him. It just seems silly to respawned after a definitive death like that without other players doing something major to have it done.
Like a quest to find the remains of a lost loved one and, once found, having the loved one raised in the congress.And I have seen those contradictions in the forums??
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I'll say this: how much death means depends on both the player's mindset, their mechanical skill, their knowledge of the server's ins and outs, the likelihood of needing a higher level for a dangerous foe soon and emotional investment in the character among many other things. Even if you're just looking at level loss, then going from level 8 to level 7 might constitute a serious setback for some, but going from 8 to 4 may be just a few hours' worth of really efficient questing for another.
But that aside, and I believe it can be set aside, some of us will dread death, both our own and others', even if you lose 10 XP for it. And others will die three times in a day and go, "well it's just XP (and gold)" and as long as it's just XP (and gold), it doesn't matter how much XP and gold you're losing. I believe the DMs control over much death 'means' is quite minimal, and often overestimated.
I know death, to me, is usually a disaster anyway.
Except PvP death. That stuff is overblown. I feel people should feel more comfortable about putting a sword through a guy's face if the situation calls for it. I can't recall ever regretting my character was killed in PvP. I regret two separate occasions where they weren't.For the rest, yeah, you've got a lot of conflicting views, different experiences, etc. Some of us might have had that one decked-out character with all the wonderful shiny cool gear, and so those will associate a lot of shiny gear with good times and fun. And others may, instead, have had a really good time fighting insurmountable odds with no gear and, through luck and skill both, come out on top. And so those people will associate a world where the swords are rusty and the +1s happen once in a generation with things being cool.
We have a perfect example in Spiffy and me:
"Plotlines should take precedence. This is a story, not a sandbox."
I believe CoA should be a sandbox. It's more fun, for one: I enjoy trying to think of lateral solutions to problems, not just be told 'Now roll Strength. Now roll Spellcraft. Now attack. Again. It's dead. More Spellcraft'. Frankly, if I wanted to have a predetermined story, I'd go play a solo campaign. Those are made by people are paid to devote months to making a really good story. Ours is, with all due respect, cobbled together by people in their limited off time with full lives to lead outside of writing stories. However, our DMs' advantage over those guys is that they are present in real time and can account for even the most outlandish or unexpected decisions, and that is an enormous advantage. So if you're going to make it a predetermined story, you're playing to the format's weaknesses instead of its strengths.
In short, I believe that in terms of mechanics and tools available, this is a sandbox. You can use it for a static story, but then you're hammering nails with a screwdriver.But also,
@AWESOMEMAN:
Am I the only one that feels this way? This isn't meant to be a rant thread, but I see problems that can be dealt with.
I've desperately tried to get involved with the setting since I started my PC and have been ignored by NPCs and told by PCs to FD other PCs. Which is boring and has only lead to problems of its own.
This is the PRECISE way I felt about my very first character on this server. In fact I believe you were playing the character other PCs told me to FD. I don't think it's the server that's significantly less inclusive. I believe you're just finding yourself in my shoes for a change. Welcome.
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But that's just it; CoA has never been a sandbox. People who think it is I don't think really understand what those terms mean when discussed in context of online worlds. Let me preface this a bit and explain the themepark/sandbox diatchomy which while most usually discussed when talking about MMOs I think is relevent here because aside from the lack of massively we are a multiplayer online world and whether we want to acknowledge it not we have been effected by the greater trends of the online world industry. So here it is; themepark is what is commonly known by World of Warcraft started by Everquest and pretty much every other major MMO title today save for EVE Online and Ultima which I will get to later. Themeparks by their inherent nature are static by design; the player isn't meant to really effect the world per say he or she's relationship is focused with the CONTENT rather with other players. We all know the formula; you move from zone to zone completing quest after quest until you reach max level and get the highest loot. They are not really made for roleplaying however because the focus is not your character's role in the world but what his gear and abilities are. I am sorry but it is functionally impossible for a player to have a meaningful impact on a game like WoW without GM involvement. It is simply not designed for it. You can interact with other players sure go quest and kill the latest raid boss but hes just going to respawn for the next group. Themeparks are not the natural choice for roleplaying because your not really playing sort of role to begin with in the world beyond your mechanical abilities in combat in relation to questing. As for PvP its usually in a structured environment and the only thing that changes is the flag (sound familar anyone?)
Moving to the second type of MMO and sadly the less popular one which is sandboxes. Sandboxes are charactetized by the fact that there is very little pre created content per say rather the game is built from the ground up for players to make an impact on the world. The two most well known MMOs that fit this catagory EVE and Ultima Online although its more modern equilvant would be Darkfall do not use a level based system that most of us have come to know rather opting to let you train a certain amount of skills. This is no accident when you think about it because in a sandbox where the aim is how the player chooses how they interact with the world and the players. A generic level system does not accomplish this objective. I am not saying you can't have skill grinding but why your grinding those skills in the first place in the context of a sandbox is an important difference. In Wow I am grinding quests so that I can reach raid content. In EVE; I am grinding my mining skill because its my profession in the game world which in turn helps me make better items to sell to other players which in turn increases my status in the gameworld. See the relationship between the two? While themeparks do facilitiate interaction between players I would argue that one is anti social because it is built around the player moving through pre created content rather than interacting with the world itself and in turn other players. As for PvP here; the consequences have far more meaning here; year long wars have been fought over sectors in EVE and in Darkfall if I lay siege to a city and take it over that means very real change for the players in that region for my control dictates what the environment will be.
NOW how does this all relate to NwN and CoA you might ask? Well as a player from EfU pointed out "We are inherently dealing with a dungeons and dragons system. So killing monsters, adventuring, and questing are really are the core of the game mechanics and therefore the rewards system. What makes D&D not an MMO is that we are pretending that we're someone in the world for real, we are giving the world a sense of suspended realism." I agree with the player half way on this, NwN is mechanically limited in terms of the options aviabile that we can do when it comes to interacting with the D&D ruleset. You could have a sandbox world using a D&D ruleset because you do have more options than combat as a way of XP gain if the world is designed that way. When it comes to NwN however the sad truth is that we on roleplaying servers are playing world's that are themepark by design at least in the sense that we reuse the same content over and over again to advance our characters. This is not entirely unavoidable but it can be mitigated somewhat by the design of the world themselves. Arelith is probably the best example of a sandbox world; players can run cities, own shops, run trade routes etc. For all its flaws I will credit them for essentially building a world that is niether quest reliant nor DM dependent. The rest of us are not so luckily but maybe we can chnage that. I am not saying CoA become like Arelith I don't think its possible with our playerbase but I am saying if we are going to call ourselves a sandbox than lets do so more than in name. Now in which one CoA has been so far I think -functionally- by when I talk about design we have leaned towards a themepark BUT until v4 it felt like a sandbox, players focused on playing characters in a world versus plot objectives.
Which is ironic because v4 was supposed to make the server more sandbox like, instead player's took the whole adventure and intrigue mantra to treat the game like WoW which has lead to the decline of roleplay which folks are now lamenting. In addition roleplay was also heavily enforced in ways that it isn't now which has also contributed to the lack of quality in "standards". Contaray to popular belief I do not think SIMs was inherently bad for CoA; again go back to the idea that we are playing an MMO only digused by roleplaying. The Adventure component at this point in time literally translates into doing a quest or grinding an area under the pretense that it will advance "story". In small doses this isn't necessarily bad but whether the DM team intended to or not it seems like large swaths of the playerbase took this as the bible and focused on nothing else and alienated a lot of CoA's core playerbase because this was essentially telling folks the only way for your character contribution on this server is if you use the suspension of disbelief and essentially play the game like a themepark mmo. DMs I know you don't like SIMs but I think this is you can't have your cake and eat it too type situations here. I know the intent wasn't to Wowize CoA but thats what its done and a longterm player remarked this a long time ago to which a DM concurred. DM presence has always been a degree been minimal the difference was that there wasn't this hyperfocus on plot driving that there has been and the only thing that the DMs really asked for in the general playerbase is that they roleplay their characters. If you want to have players going out and adventuring whatnot than I suggest we figure out a way to make a server where this is actually fun because grinding the same quest or area doesn't seem to be the way to go about it. I am happy to hear about the random dungeons being implemented; this kind of dynamic content is what makes the game feel less static as a whole which is what we need to get the immersive feeling we have lost.
So where does this leave us in terms of options? Well I think it comes down to much what BrokenGunBlade said about the server adopting an identity/theme (/forum/vie ... 0&start=45 thread here for players who haven't read it all the points made it are still sailent imho) something which I think it is still lacking and thus really the reason why these type of threads keep coming up every year because we keep trying to treat the symptoms rather than the root. Thats why v5 I don't think is a sucess in the way the DMs wanted it to be because we are still lacking this. I am not even sure what we are trying to go for in this new setting and some of the other players I've talked to feel the same way. V5 when it was being originally teased to the playerbase excited a lot of people because it A) Brought back the feeling of being in a fleshed out setting again something that CoA traditionally did very well B) Had a distinct theme of exploration. These used to be CoA's strengths. The current v5 I don't think has niether at this point, we seem to be wanting to call ourselves a sandbox but in reality it seems like the game is being blantantly being played like a themepark and folks really don't have any control over how they effect the setting indepedent of a DM.
In closing; this server needs to figure out what it wants to be and how to make whatever theme/identity appealing to players new and old. We need to encourage folks to put the focus back on their characters and not just plot driving for the sake of it. While parts of this server may be inherently themepark its best if we try to mimimize the ones we can. If all this can be done than I think we'll have a more stable future than we do now.