Server Less Inclusive and More Static Than Ever
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Am I the only one that feels this way? This isn't meant to be a rant thread, but I see problems that can be dealt with.
I've desperately tried to get involved with the setting since I started my PC and have been ignored by NPCs and told by PCs to FD other PCs. Which is boring and has only lead to problems of its own.
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Server has become more about questing and PvP these days, than ever before. Used to be you could sit somewhere and RP and plot for ages, but there is so little plot information flowing, and so few people with a vested interest in said plots.
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Not sure what you mean with inclusion but with a mini-player base not many plots can be run at the same time so I find it normal, in particular if we have 5-6 pcs with interesta and the avg number of players is 12.
On pvp yes. The server has become a team 1 vs team 2, generally speaking and I know a few people that stopped playing here for this reason (I did it for a spell).
solution: (and I know that server changed from there to here), more DM "guided" interaction.
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LOL: As soon as we guide more interaction you will all be upset because there is too much DM steamrolling. I won't fall for that!
As for PvP, DMs didn't make it Team 1 vs Team 2, we're not keen on seeing PKing as a solution to telling stories. So I'm not sure why players feel this is going on.
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There's a difference between guiding players and giving them a direction to go in.
Right now, people are struggling to find things to do that aren't quests. This is(was) compounded by a lightening of DM activity in the weeks following the end of the Wheat King plot.
This is what leads to a PvP-centric plot meta. If you leave characters alone, with nothing to chase, they're going to go to other players to do stuff. PvP requires a certain amount of resources and levels in order to keep up, thus a heavy focus on questing. If there is (apparently) lots of stuff you can do without a DM, but I sure as hell don't know what any of it is. Give people a push, just a little one, and you'll see it rewarded a hundred fold.
As far as the DM factions go, they are representative of two factions who are literally pitted against each other and have been the entirety of V5. Why would you assume that they would not be fighting, exactly?
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Because they have no reason to actually kill each other and each group has at least four or five plots they can be pursuing that doesn't take PvP, and certainly doesn't take PKing and the DMs have all given plenty of direction on what they could be doing.
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Players lacking creativity and dms not responding to the few players who are creative is what I see the problem. The lack of creativity ends with ppl trying to pvp to get just SOMETHING going on and imo here the dms should help give some hooks to these players as HY says. The next problem is the dms tend to have difficulty making follow-up on the plots so either the players stop following the plot cause there's no progression or they die in some pvp before that.
For instance I did a lot with my pc to further his goals but u can only get to some extend without dm follow-up. And typing on irc and/or forum to get a dm who might start doing follow-up can sometimes be demanding when you don't have that much time for this already highly time consuming game. And who don't want to just be playing the game instead of spending time on forum and other things outside nwn?
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Players lacking creativity and dms not responding to the few players who are creative is what I see the problem. The lack of creativity ends with ppl trying to pvp to get just SOMETHING going on and imo here the dms should help give some hooks to these players as HY says. The next problem is the dms tend to have difficulty making follow-up on the plots so either the players stop following the plot cause there's no progression or they die in some pvp before that.
This is pretty much what I was getting at, except I wouldn't say DMs don't support creative players (or anyone else), but that the current style is very disinterested in helping to motivate players.
I understand what Moloch's getting at about railroading, but when a PC writes an NPC asking what kind of stuff he can do to get their attention, it's really frustrating to be passed off to PCs that don't have an ideas, or get the answer "if you were worth anything in this faction you'd figure that out for yourself."
Creativity and coming up with plots/events/attacks/rituals on your own should be rewarded, of course, but why can't there also be NPCs with ideas to help us along when we can't think of anything, or for players who aren't as comfortable or familiar with how these kind of plots work?
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There have been three posts in the player plot forum this month.
We can't help if we don't know what you're doing.
We also don't hand out plots over the forums.
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I can hand out plots IG if you like? lol. But in all seriousness I'm trying to involve more people in the stuff I've stumbled upon myself so they can go forth and prosper! Even without me. All Dante cares about is getting a ship, everything else is just fun and gravy!
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I am feeling this as well, through much fault of my own i admit, but feeling it none the less.
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A big issue i see, is we have too many groups focused on keeping their plots secret, or who have guidelines that kind of limit the amount of interest we can build on some plots.
I do know about the whole FD issue you're having because you aren't the only one. I feel though, that the want for FD's is partially in an IC sense of trying to get things rolling. When I have bad guys complaining IC and OOC that they aren't getting enough conflict, it says something. I understand not everyone wants to PvP, but you can't put yourself in situations with potential for PvP (And I mean Player vs Player, or Plot vs Plot). Everyone wants to steamroll their own plot, not have interruptions, and come out the hero. That's not how you create a good story.
A bit of advice I can give in the "Avoiding PvP" area… Don't make a religious character. Nothing kills my immersion more then seeing a goodly PC walk away from a fight because he OOCly wants to avoid PvP, even though there are a million reasons to ICly to reach out and slap a mother trucker. Religion is always going to be one of the main motivators for PvP, no matter the religion or the character.
Now a bit of advice in making PvP fun? It's really easy. Stop thinking about the win. Every character will want to win. The secret to causing conflict and further immersion and roleplay is asking yourself, "Why does my PC want to win? What Goal do they want to achieve." You'll find many more ways to get people interested, even if you are whooping their butts in PvP. Let them live to be a messenger of your strength. Force them to reveal the doom coming to their precious city, so you can focus on it's destruction. I really want to point fingers at Unfie with this. He has been really good at keeping the PvP about the conflict build. Half the time, we spot each other walking in Old Town and the RP builds from there, even if it ends in one of us getting our faces beat in, we act as our characters would.
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Ppl just have to learn that pvp can be fun and doesn't nessecarily end in fd. Avoiding being religious in FR would be a big shame imo :?
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I agree Zav, but I find that a lot of the people attempting to avoid PvP all together, tend to be the most religious characters, which completely defeats the point of avoiding PvP. PvP can be wailing on each other with swords or words. When I see people just walk away from it all, I wish I could call the wrath of their own God down upon them. The easiest way to avoid conflict, is to not give your character something to conflict over. Make him a yes man. Do as your told. But then it becomes lame for 95% of people.
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Don't concern yourself with the loss. Go at level 10 bad guys if you're a level 4 crusader. It only serves to further your conflict.
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Don't concern yourself with the loss. Go at level 10 bad guys if you're a level 4 crusader. It only serves to further your conflict.
In my experience, most level 10 bad guys aren't going to FD you on the first conflict, especially if you are a lowbie in starter armor. If you're a good guy there is a GREAT reason to not FD (Mercy, law, justice, honor, etc) and if you are a bad guy there are several more (toying with your enemy, enjoying the cat and mouse game, building a reputation, etc). I never AVOID PvP unless there is an IC reason to not. I do however ALWAYS avoid giving a FD unless there is no way at all to avoid it. I'll put the FD in the hands of a DM before I'll ever pull the trigger myself… but thats just because I'm kinda weak hearted about it... I never want to be the guy that ends another person's story.
Also, on this note. I'm really trying to involve more people and give out more plots I've collected, I am, however, In a really crappy time zone and only see the same people every day. I'll try to play more on weekends to give some out but I can't make promises till I get home next month
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To be fair, I havent been IC in about a month. But, I still have my experiences beforehand to discuss this aspect from. I think the DMs have built a wonderful playground, with alot of cool toys. Yet I also feel that the last 15% from CoA to becoming truly awesome, are currently lacking. The responsibility however, is evenly divided between DMs and us Players.
The first 5 % of those, are two very specific things; The overall Narrative affecting the server, and through it, giving the sense of progression. An example of this, is that Wyvernspur, and Ann Marie die. Awesome plot, leads to alot of PC interaction. The NCPs also react to it. But besides Deschurr getting a public execution, and some rumor posts, how did it change the lives of the NCPs, and how did said change affect the pc lives? How did it affect the Hullack Forest, that Wyvernspurs druid circle got claimed? The changes may have been shown to a few pcs, but for some reason it never gets past said pcs playtimes, and it therefore never has the ripple effect that makes rumors spread to ALL pcs.
The Second 5%, is, in lack of better terms, referred to as the Dobby Effect. And to be fair, Dobby, it has NOTHING to do with you personally. I could call it the Bane effect also. But, it is the way too great focus upon one person, from dms and players alike. People are so in awe to what people like Bane, and Dobby can do, that the fan club becomes way too strong. Players flock to these awesome dudes, because said dudes know how to quest, which makes them do fun quests without too much fear of dying. This makes people go out of their way to become said peoples' minions. This makes dms give these people alot of attention, which makes a circular effect that creates the impression that without a Bane, Dobby, Gowl, whatever, you cannot do jack shit upon the server. People are so scared of their PVP abilities, that they eventually go unopposed.
I have shit idea how to stop this effect, but it gives alot of people the impression that unless you are either them, or with them, nothing can be accomplished. Which is a damn shame.The last 5%, is the final touches. It is the 500 exp and 2000 gold mass distributed without a single IC notification after major events. It is the lack of follow up, it is how we leave things, such as people logging just after a quest has been finished, without any roleplay. Not bothering telling anyone you secretly killed someone, so that said pc just vanishes, yet their allies are not given any chance to find out what happened. The lack of respect for what we have, I suppose you might call it. Not writing a report about something major happening with your faction, not bothering sharing plot info, and all those minor things that annoys you, but in itself isnt a major problem.
Id love some people showing the way that everything does not have to end in FD to be enjoyable. But most importantly, id love if we started being INCLUSIVE again. Because we arent, atm.
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I understand where you are coming from Olouth. Its not players being un-inclusvie (is that a word?) on purpose… it's just that the whole server has become divided into time zones instead of fluid and connected. Time Zone A is doing this stuff while Time Zone B is doing other stuff and nothing seems to cross over. I'm trying to involve as many people as I can, but I'm unfortunately in a really crappy time zone so I'm probably going to have to be more open with throwing plots out on the forums... which some people dislike but might get more cross platform stuff rolling. The other thing is there is an awesome amount of intrigue going on. I love intrigue... always have... always will.. but unfortunately when EVERYONE is playing an intrigue character... NO ONE knows what is going on. When need a few more open villians, open revolutionaries, open heroes, LG paladins charging against evil in order to spice things up again.
Also, though I agree the Dobby/CB effect exist, they by no means have as large of an impact as you think. I've successfully been having tons of stories, adventures, and character involvement over the last few weeks, having only seen those types a couple times here and there. Maybe part of that revolves around the fact that I'm not really trying to acomplish anything personal and everyone else in my party usually sees more plot/personal/loot reward than I do when I take people out adventuring helps.
I guess my biggest thing is, if you want people to be involved in your story/plot/etc... you have to make it about them too and not just about you. Nobody wants to be only a side character in someone else's story. I'll give you a couple examples: Dante wants to have wyvernwater adventures, so instead of saying I WANT TO DO THIS! COME PUSH MY PLOT! I have him say things like... Hey! Furies Characters! Why don't I help you curry Umberlee's favor on the wyvernwater? Dante also wants something from a particular evil creature so instead of saying HEY COME HELP ME DEFEAT THIS EVIL CREATURE! I say: Hey Good guys, I found an evil creature, let me help you smite it and you can be a famous hero. This is a very undervalued trick... also.. letting other players take the lead when DM possessed NPC's pop up and standing aside to let them have some glory to goes a LOOOOONG way.
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I have a few suggestions to help with this:
Yes, there is a lot DMs can do also. Don't point fingers, we will work on our stuff and you guys work on yours.
1. Have a personal plot. Make PCs with plots planned from the get go. Yes, sometimes people make random characters that find some plot to latch onto and become successful with, but you are counting on getting lucky. Every PC should have something they are working with. This also goes for support characters and minions. You should have plot ideas too that are not just "Do what my boss says".
2. Make Relevant PCs. You should obviously play what you want, but when making a PC, consider how you will interact with DM and PC factions ahead of time. Alter the character's personality to make interacting with these groups in one way or another make sense. For example, we have a current Witch Kings metaplot which involves undead. Deciding to make a paladin of Lathander sounds like a good choice to help the DMs further the plot. Making… I dunno... An abberation hunting ranger (sorry to anyone playing this) is less likely to fit so nicely. I often get people telling me "It doesn't make sense for me to be involved in this plot." MAKE it make sense.
3. Communicate with the DM team. I don't think I am saying it loud enough. In the past month, three players have used the Player Plot forum, one player has PMed me a plot idea on the forum, and two people asked for help with a plot on IRC. This STRONGLY indicates to me that players are not trying to push plots. We cannot help you if we don't know what you are doing. You do not have to come to us with fully fleshed out app worthy ideas. Tell us what you are trying to do, how, and with who. We might offer you feed back. We might run an event for you. We might give you thematic quest spice. Yes, we might not do anything but it is worth trying - We're not ignoring you we are just busy. If you are about to go exploring, pop into IRC and tell us. We will not be annoyed, promise.
4. Get involved in others people's plots. No, you might not get the glory. But networking IG is how you are going to get people to help you with your stuff. You can't buy plot help most of the time, people will just quest for gold and potions. Plot involvement is a commodity to be traded. If you have the same plot idea as someone else, work together. Don't worry about one person getting the glory, it doesn't matter. When you see that other guy who made a Paladin of Lathander, don't go "Aw shit that guy stole my concept, time for a new PC." Join up! Latherderite Pally faction!
5. Think up creative consequences ahead of time. In PvP people often are full of adrenaline. You're not thinking clearly or creatively, much of the time. If you are conflicting with someone and you know mechanical PvP is likely, have a plan AHEAD of time as to what you will do if you win. What might you do besides FD or the Pit? Knowing this BEFORE the PvP even starts is massively useful and will save you from standing their over your defeated enemy going "Uhhhhh… Pit, I guess?".
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is the player plot forum still active? I thought we were using the 'issue tracker' system now?
I have to say that number 4 above is really a must do for everyone these days as there aren't enough people in any faction to go it alone.
My dwarf has taken help from 'anyone' that has offered it, and the staple pay is whatever coins I can afford to help cover the cost of some consumables but mostly a 'I owe you one, tell me when I can help you' (except with really bad typos and a fake accent).