RE: Reminder About Too Good to Be True Things!
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@Moloch:
Folks, please help us out sometimes. DMs don't get to play or quest nearly as much as most of you, so sometimes we miss things in the module that are clearly bugs that are too beneficial to players.
Lately, I've noticed some things that are simply way too good to be true that players are taking advantage of without ever questioning why its that good.
The Fighter Only Item Discipline is the BEST healing item in game, more useful than Cure Critical Wounds potions and at less than 1/100 the cost per charge and HP healed. That's simply too good. When I did the math, this item was still TWICE as powerful as a Wand of Cure Serious Wounds for HALF the cost. Stuff like that needs to be pointed out to us.
On Kanthea's quest, the malar panthers that died dropped claws that you could turn into a separate NPC to sell for 50 gold and 50 xp. Now, why would the DMs want a monster that usually gives you 7-14 XP on a quest to give you a 50 gold/xp reward when you turn in the claw afterwards? I'm sure some people used this to rapidly level up–but again--TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE.
So please, if you're finding things like this that are just splendid tools for leveling up or questing that are vastly better than anything else, we want you to tell us. The fact is, sometimes we misjudge just how powerful something is or haven't done the quest ourselves to realize how easy it is or thoroughly tested polymorph to see how it works in every situation. When things are not balanced, we rely on players to help us figure that out.
Concerning the discipline fighter only healing items. I always assumed that they were that good to compensate for the fact that fighters have absolutely nothing else going for them compared to multi-classed Fighter/Rogues who get evasion, sneak attack, UMD, etc.
Yes, it is the best healing item in the game, but imo it still pales in comparaison to the benefits that such multiclassed builds get with the wands/magic items they can use with their UMD.
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Just because pure class fighter is not -as- good as a rogue/fighter does not mean that they are not very effective. A well built, well played pure fighter can single handedly carry a party on most quests in the 1-3, 1-4, 1-6 and 4-8 lvl range. And be a solid pillar in any party after that in the 7-12 range of quests. Even without the uber "Discpline" healing item staying as it is now, they will remain a tier 1 class/build.
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Just because pure class fighter is not -as- good as a rogue/fighter does not mean that they are not very effective. A well built, well played pure fighter can single handedly carry a party on most quests in the lvl 1-3, 1-4, 1-6 and 4-8 range. And be a solid pillar in any party after that in the 7-12 range of quests. Even without the uber "Discpline" healing item staying as it is now, they will remain a tier 1 class/build.
if you go for typical expertise/imp expertise, tower shield, 1 handed weapon, then sure. But if you want to make something a bit less AC wise, you need the healing. Potions cost you a butt load, other magic potions cost a butt load compared to wands which pure fighters cannot use of course.
And also, the number of pure fighters out there isnt alot. There are many more fighter/rogues and fighter/barbs than anything else. So the discipline item itself, while very powerful, still isnt enough to detract from the advantages of other multi-class builds which is why I originally thought it balanced.
Just my 2 cents.
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I see your 2 cents and raise you $100.
Fighters don't need the BEST healing in the game available to them, especially when the advantage is nearly 4:1 over what anyone else has access to.
It really is that simple. There isn't much to debate about it.
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I see your 2 cents and raise you $100.
Fighters don't need the BEST healing in the game available to them, especially when the advantage is nearly 4:1 over what anyone else has access to.
It really is that simple. There isn't much to debate about it.
I agree that when you get to around 20 discipline, it becomes a bit much since it heals for 40 straight up. Perhaps a reduction to 1.5 times?
In any case, you are right, the debate is over. Rogue levels for the win.
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I suppose I missed a trick here. I was rather unhappy with the Fighters sudden increase in healing abilities so that they actually started ignoring the priests healing skills as unnecessary.
I should have pointed this out, but after all the complaints about the cost of healing for fighters I thought this was by design, and feared the wrath of all those who have been whining about the cost of fighter healing.
One thing I would like on the fighter discipline item is for a different visual effect. I think the blue "Heal" affect should be restricted for the stunning event of needing and using a Heal potion or having a God/DM heal you because of your heroic stance against all odds. I'd suggest using the visual effects of the Cure Critical or Cure Serious potions since this is the equivalent item.
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I've seen ALOT of people using this discipline item. You can only use it if your pure fighter right? If so, then there are LOADS more pure fighters around. Probly because of that item.
Also, I second the thing about changing the visual, it just looks to mental.
Really though, just make the item similar to a healing wand….
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I suppose I missed a trick here. I was rather unhappy with the Fighters sudden increase in healing abilities so that they actually started ignoring the priests healing skills as unnecessary.
That about covers it - Fighters just arn't meant to be healers, certainly not this easily.
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Fighters aren't healers those gems only heal themselves I was once on a quest in which all I could do with my fighter was to just put him in front of a party member that was under the scare effect and a lot of archers were shooting at that respective party member and that didn't even work so that character died so don't make such high assumptions. Also even with those gems my fighter is very poor he only has betwin 50 and 100 coins after resupplying after a quest and that's only bandages and one of those stones, to have enough coins to buy things like potions not of a healing nature, he will have to start becoming a thug and steal from people. My first fighter to be able to have enough coins to be supplied with potions was a blacksmith but now that the crafting system is no more is very hard, those stone are the only thing that make a pure fighter that is not build mechanically proficient to survive passed lvl 6.
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Regardless, even with the adjustment in price going in for these items, they heal MORE than a Cure Serious Wounds Wand and at half the cost. It is still a very good item, it just isn't so powerful it is broken now.
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Wha? I'm confused. The Fighter healing only item was made the way it was after it was brought up through discussion with another DM that they didn't even exist in the first place. It was purposly made to be that way. I'm not sure if it's too good to be true though. I for one can tell you that I easily blow through 30 charges sometimes, and that's saying something for how much the item heals. I say keep the healing ability, just raise the price a tiny bit.
As for other items…I'm not sure how you DM's communicate about such things, but I'm positive this specific item was DM discussed allready. It raises the question "Why did it take this long for a problem to come up with the healing gem?" It's been used infront of DM's like a million times by now.
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double or triple the cost or something or quadruple the cost or something, but don't remove it, please.
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Not sure about the new price, I don't play a fighter - but as it was, he gem was less than 300 gold and provided what before was almost 3k worth of healing. Definitely to good to be true. Glad it was adjusted.
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Yes. They cure about the same hp and more as a Cure Critical, which runs several hundred per potion. Ten charges.
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I took a look at a suggestion that asked to lower the price of cure critical wand costs. The cure critical wands can heal at max the same as a healing gem with 50 charges at the price of about 2600 coins to make. The gem's themself cost lower then 300 gp to buy and heal the same max ammount, but with only 10 charges. In other words…
Wand=2600 GP
Gem=200x5=1,000(multiplied by five to equal the same ammount of charges used.) GP
Why not simply, like said before, double the price or so?
Gem=500x5=2,500 gold(Again multiplied by five to equal the same ammount of charges in a cure wand.)
Sure, wands can't heal the max all the time, but...
The gem is the only general magical healing item that pure fighters can use during a fight. It allows many fighters to play their role, being a meatshield. They cannot heal other people, only themselves with such an item. Using this item makes you exit combat and you have to re-enter.
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10 charges that head about 30 HP each. Thats about 300 hp of healing. for 300 gold.
CLW does 1d8+1 for 21 GP, averaging 2.3gp/hp
CMD does 2d8+1 for 34 GP, averaging 3.7gp/hp
CSW does 3d8+1 for 69 GP, averaging 5.5gp/hp
CCW does 4d8+1 for…dunno. But the ratio is even worse.
Discipline does 30+HP for 29 GP each, about 0.8 gp/hp.If we increase Discipline to ...
1gp/hp = 30 gp per use = 300 gp
2gp/hp = 60 gp per use = 600 gp
3gp/hp = 90 gp per use = 900 gp
4gp/hp = 120 gp per use = 1200 gp
5gp/hp = 150gp per use = 1500 gp -
@Swifty:
The gem is the only general magical healing item that pure fighters can use during a fight. It allows many fighters to play their role, being a meatshield. They cannot heal other people, only themselves with such an item. Using this item makes you exit combat and you have to re-enter.
Swifty makes an important point.
It gets really strong at higher levels, even more so with gloves and belts of discipline. One solution is lowering it to 1,5x discipline as suggested earlier. I think thats a good solution.
On the other hand, parties could start to bring clerics along and get actual healing spells cast on them, cost free! :O My experiece is that half the time; the fighters just rush on, not leaving me any time to heal unless I charge blindly after them, risking AOOs and giving no RP. Some people won't accept my spells for religious reasons, which is fine. But when the guys I see run away and guzzle a ton of potions, complain about lack and cost of healing, I simply don't know what to say.
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Clerics have a niche role as a buffer for tough fights. If they are wasting spells healing, they are not realizing that fight buffs will help fighters NOT use all that healing.
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Not all clerics are buffers. And not all buffer clerics would IC'ly buff other people. They vary based on dogma.
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Just saying… Shouldn't worry Excessively on Mechanics since this is a RP server?
If your getting into the Mechanics thing, All classes have their positives and negatives, Most classes have some way of overcoming this be it Via Feats, Stats, or Items.
